“Ukraine means efforts!”

In 20 years, our daily has become a dynamic and unique fount of intellectual initiatives which the editor-in-chief never tires of producing, while the entire editorial staff is doing its best to put them across to Ukrainian society. Whether or not the public has made use of them is the question of its sense of responsibility. On the eve of this significant date, we conducted an in-house survey – we inquired what our own and special correspondents in various regions would like to ask Ms. Ivshyna. For, obviously, it is a unique experience to head a national Ukrainian newspaper for 20 years in a country that restored its independence 25 years ago, and there are a lot of things to learn here. This interview is about the path of Ukrainian journalism and Larysa Ivshyna’s personal “alternatives.”

“UKRAINIAN JOURNALISM FAILED TO RESPOND TO TWO VERY SERIOUS CHALLENGES”

Olha KHARCHENKO: “Den’s columnist Natalia Ishchenko wrote in one of her latest columns about ‘journalism in vacuum’ – a crisis of the Ukrainian media which she thinks was caused by the absence of a chance for self-repayment and of a ‘clearly-formed and articulated public demand for high-quality journalism.’ How long do you think this crisis will last and how can Ukrainian society put an end to it? Will any really ‘smart’ publications remain behind?”

“Indeed, it is a test question, the question of a global Rubicon. Now, after 25 years of a clannish, oligarchic, and ostentatious statehood, it depends on the awakened Ukrainian society which side the pendulum will swing to. If it swings, in spite of economic difficulties, towards supporting the Reason of our people and, undoubtedly, ‘smart’ media, we will stand a chance. If not, Ukraine will disappear, as will, naturally, all the media that were supposed to set up a platform for a qualitative growth and a reconsidered condition. It is a question of subjectness. If there is no formation platform, there will be no subjectness. There is a sparkle that can kindle a flame to light up the road, but there is also a quagmire that can swallow up everything. We’ve been doing our best in all the past years to show wise Ukrainians in our society. Yes, a weak economy and poverty are the factors that work against the print media. But it is high time now to understand that the quality press needs large circulations. This will be an indication of society’s desire to live. We must not eke out an existence and trail behind – we must take our destiny into our own hands instead of entrusting it to foreigners.”

O.Kh.: “Was Ukraine ‘doomed’ 20 years ago to the journalism we have today?”

“No. Ukrainian journalism enjoyed a renaissance in the early 1990s, and there were a lot of encouraging signs and events in the media, and interesting personalities. But Ukrainian journalism failed to respond to two very serious challenges. The first Rubicon was the 1999 elections, when most journalists began (some under coercion and some voluntarily) to serve the leadership and are still doing so – the leadership that has after all caused Ukraine to wage a war and lose some territories. The second challenge is the moral catastrophe that befell most of the Ukrainian journalists who did not dare side with the truth in the journalist Gongadze murder case. Problems of this kind are incompatible with true journalism. Some ‘fragments’ have survived, and they are now flying, as if in outer space, in search of an ‘assemblage point,’ and the last year saw perhaps an encouraging sign – a debate that started with a Den roundtable on a media platform for unity [see “Does the National Union of Journalists have a ‘National Character’?” in The Day, No. 79, December 22, 2016. – Ed.].”

“I AM FIRST A LOKACHI PERSON, THEN A VOLYN PERSON, THEN A UKRAINIAN, AND ONLY THEN A EUROPEAN”

Natalia MALIMON, Den’s own correspondent in Volyn oblast: “You were born and raised in Lokachi, a small town in Volyn. As years and decades go by, it is still interesting to read your reminiscences about the period of life in Lokachi. I, also a Volyn resident, also discover something new from the history of that region every time. Why is your hometown still attracting you?”

“On the contrary, I think our base of identities has been formed wrongly. Any identity should be based on love for one’s homeland. The birthplace? It is not a small thing to me. I once said in an interview that my impression was that I had been born in the center of the Universe. Only then were new layers added to this linchpin. In other words, I am first a Lokachi person, then a Volyn person, then a Ukrainian, and only then a European. And I value the base of this ‘pyramid’ most of all. For I have not yet sufficiently studied my homeland. There was a teacher, Zinaida Tesaniuk, at the school I went to, who taught history and told us a lot of interesting facts about the local area. And I still wish she had told us more. For later, in Kyiv and particularly at Den, I came to know that there had been an academy, as ancient as the one is Ostroh, at the village of Kyselyn in our raion. Or take the Ukrainian Insurgent Army’s battle against the Germans in Zahoriv – of course, we knew nothing of this heroic story in our school years. Or take Zaturtsi, Lokachi raion: it is a noble spot for me because it is the birthplace of a prominent person, Viacheslav Lypynsky. We dedicated an online excursion to him, and if one cannot travel there, he or she can watch it on Den’s ‘Ukraine Incognita’ website (incognita. day.kiev.ua). These are just a few fragments from the history of what is usually considered just an administrative district.

“Whenever I visit Lutsk, I use any opportunity to tell Volyn bosses that there has long been no bookstore in Lokachi and that a good road to that place must be built… I do so because I can feel that all these noble spots lack love and need a great attention. Undoubtedly, they deserve a better attitude.

Photo by Artem SLIPACHUK, The Day

“Besides, Likachi raion showed its special nature even in the 1999 elections. I always emphasize and am proud of the fact that Lokachi showed by far the highest percentage of votes for Yevhen Marchuk. A similar percentage could only be seen at polling stations abroad, where there was absolutely no administrative pressure. I can’t help being proud of Lokachi!

“Besides, when I came to Kyiv to study, I felt like a free person who could say that she was a provincial who had a number of advantages. It may sound a bit too self-confident, but it was really like this. Many of the girls, my fellow students, did not understand at all the life I’d seen. And I knew the country they didn’t know. Once, when a fellow student and I went to Lviv, she said to me: ‘How strange! Such well-dressed people speak Ukrainian.’ She is totally different now. But it took her 30 years to change. But that was a start. And this ‘small homeland,’ as Ukrainians say, is not at all small. It is principal.”

“WE SHOULD ESTABLISH A FIELD OF ETHICAL RESISTANCE”

Ivan ANTYPENKO, Den’s own correspondent in Kherson oblast: “An extremely large number of new media, both national and local, has come up in Ukraine now. But their quality is sometimes very low. I can’t possibly call some websites mass media. They are in fact no media, but they distort the information field very much – they often just invent news to please their bosses. Add to this ignorance and absence of the idea of standards, genres, professional ethics, and solidarity. Den’s Summer School has helped many young beginners to become good journalists or at least taught them what the media should be like. But what is to be done in the provinces?”

“Do what Den is doing. Good journalists should teach one another and unite.”

I.A.: “What instruments should the people who want to improve the quality of the media in district and regional centers seek? What will you advise to do to counter local news agencies which don’t care about the way the media must work, for their goal is to create a sensation, character-assassinate a politician, or pose as a media empire?”

“Above all, we must establish a field of ethical resistance. In the times of censorship, people were forced to do things that had nothing to do with ethics. But then a lot of possibilities emerged. And, naturally, one is more responsible in the conditions of freedom for what he or she is doing. We should support decent and high-quality examples more actively and set up a ‘sanitary cordon’ to ward off all ‘impurities.’ We had a period, especially during Kuchma’s second term, when journalists who began to carve out a career by doing bad things held sway. I said then that the ‘water supply line’ was linked to the ‘sewerage’ in Ukrainian journalism, without any culture or ethics filters. As a result, society is sick. The ‘consumption’ of low-quality journalism is also mortally dangerous to health. Do we are always saying: don’t rummage in information trash dumps! Everybody must know exactly where to ‘quench his thirst.’

“I said in a 2005 interview (12 years ago!), after the first Maidan, that ‘journalism is responsible for twisting the frame of references.’ Moreover, some journalists are directly responsible for the fact that the second Maidan did not stop at the point of nonviolence but resulted in bloodshed and deaths and gave the aggressor a pretext to seize our territories. They created false idols and hyped up images. After all, as it became known later, they took money for this. It is not enough to threaten that the Almighty will do short work of them. In general, it would be very good if Ukrainian society learned to properly assess them and at least not to let them go into politics. And all this began 12 years ago, when I even disclosed concrete names in that interview, which was utterly unthinkable at that time, for we were all so ‘tolerant’ that we were very much afraid to quarrel and name people who must be named in critical situations. This in fact created our own ‘quagmire.’

“Of course, we should build parallel ‘islands’ of quality. Whenever I visit some place, I always say: ‘My friends, it immensely pleases me to read what you say about our photo exhibit. But, in reality, I am convinced that every journalistic community can organize this kind of exhibit at their place and show it in raion centers and small villages, where there are not many cultural events.’ Our photo exhibit unites people. This allows us to see that people need us. And as Ukrainian journalism was too much busy with itself, it lost this indispensable link. I think our strong point is that we have never lost it. We have always paid attention to letters which show how difficult our wise reader’s life is. Yet he does not refuse to read. The main goal now is to inculcate scrupulousness, taste, and the ability to unite. If we do not do so, these ‘islands’ will be further washed out by ‘quagmire,’ and the final will be equally deplorable. All that was ‘cultivated’ requires constant daily efforts.”

“DEN IS A LIFTING JACK. IT TAKES COURAGE TO USE IT”

I.A.: “In the 20 years of your work at Den, the newspaper has grown dramatically and enriched itself with a number of unique projects which have always promoted a Ukraine-centered state, respect for our history and culture, a balanced high politics and diplomacy. Did you want to see Den like this 10-15 years ago? What and why has failed? And what kind of Den would you like to see in the next 10-15 years?”

“I have always believed that the need in the quality press is so obvious that this will stimulate the state to support it. Unfortunately, this did not happen. The state had different favorites in each of its political ‘edition.’ I can say we have always been laying the groundwork for the arrival of ‘ours,’ but this didn’t occur. Obviously, if our president had come in 1999, there would have been no war in Ukraine. I knew these risks and saw this danger on that election night. I said that Ukraine and history had missed each other in the 1999 presidential elections. We went through one door and history through another. All the others were asking: what is she talking about? Everything was so classy and everybody pictured themselves in new roles. But the country ended up on the receiving end. Incidentally, I was saying at the time why I was so worried – this would also affect the newspaper Den because our wise reader would be emigrating. Meanwhile, the other part would struggle for survival, and they would think about how to distribute their budget so they could also be able to buy the newspaper they need and want to read. And, after all, you want to support it, but, but, but… And all this has been so since those times.

“But we remained alive not thanks to but in spite of circumstances – owing to true partners and the people who keep supporting Den as if it were a symphony orchestra during a ruin. We must be grateful for this to readers, subscribers, and partners. Should society remain unaware of this, it won’t be an endless delight. For this reason, I would only dream of Den’s large circulation and a free advert market, where advertisements will be in the newspaper, not on posts and trees. And I could be quiet and grateful for this peace and think that our journalists at last receive a salary worthy of their efforts. But what can I see around? The most venal ones have the best bonuses. I dreamed that society and, some day, the government would support worthy journalists. This did not happen, and I don’t know when this will occur.

“I am worried about the taste of the authorities in choosing their favorites. It promises nothing good to society. The humanitarian policy could have been based long ago on our proposals to society. When those who wield power smile politely but do nothing, they leave us under the influence of Russia which has made years-long and billions-worth efforts to keep Ukraine in this condition. This is why it is a life-or-death question for not only the quality media, but also the country as such.

“It is we, the overall condition of the economy and politics, and the public mood that are to blame for failures. Those who staked on ‘pop culture’ had a large circulation and contributed to the election of this kind of presidents. Ukraine means efforts. This ‘pop-culture-like’ content was enough to remain a post-Soviet territory. But, to become a European country, one must make efforts. I can say that Den is a lifting jack of sorts. And it takes courage to use it.”

“I COULD CHOOSE 33 EASY ROADS AND ONE DIFFICULT. I CHOSE THE DIFFICULT ONE”

Inna TILNOVA, part-time correspondent in Kropyvnytskyi, and Viktoria SYDOROVA, part-time correspondent in Chernihiv: “What do you think you would do if you were not Den’s editor?”

“As a matter of fact, I never wanted to be an editor – absolutely. I was almost physically dragged into Kievskiye Vedomosti and persuaded to be deputy editor-in-chief. The only thing I wanted was to be given one more column for the same salary – I only had ‘domestic policy,’ but I also wanted ‘foreign policy.’ I successfully persuaded them to give me this – and there was as much work.

“I won’t say it was my vocation, but I also was a good builder and house painter and plasterer. At the same time, I was tempted to enter the Higher Young Communist (Komsomol) School in Moscow, and I could have become a ‘Valia Matviienko.’ It was also an alternative. An alternative is not only what we did not achieve but also, thank God, what we evaded. I could have been an order recipient in the Soviet era: I was promised an Order of Lenin and a seat at the USSR Supreme Soviet even if I failed to enter – in that case I could remain behind at the construction site and apply for a distance learning course. There was a vacancy there, and I was suitable by all indications to be part of the Soviet nomenklatura. This mattered very much before the perestroika because you could use it as a steppingstone for everything else.

Photo by Mykola TYMCHENKO, The Day

“Then I could become President Kuchma’s spokesperson, but, thank God, I didn’t become one. Several parties wanted to recruit me, but I refused to fill their ranks. My life story mostly consists of refusals. I was making my ‘wagers’ absolutely clearly – sometimes intuitively, sometimes deliberately, but I have no regrets. Yet it was very hard. I could choose 33 easy roads and one  difficult. I chose the difficult one.

“I also declined an invitation to be a functionary at the city and oblast Komsomol committees. I knew what Komsomol showed on the rostrum and what was outside the latter, behind the scenes. And this spirit immediately discouraged me. Incidentally, it has not yet fully vanished from behind the scenes. Like journalism, Ukrainian politics also enjoyed a renaissance for some time. But the problem is that the quality was rather low. By all accounts, there was a quality potential in Ukraine, but it was as thin as the ozone layer, and it needed utmost care to transfer it from the Soviet to the post-Soviet period and keep it intact. It would have been sufficient in Ukraine for two full-fledged publications and two parties. And now there are about 350 parties and as many media. We have missed the stage when it was necessary to consolidate. We didn’t even notice it and failed to record it – we got down at once to distribution and ‘vegetative reproduction’ because everybody wanted to be an editor or a party leader. This spreading, instead of a vertical growth, affected everything. Of course, it is difficult for this reason to pull ‘the hippopotamus from the swamp,’ especially when this ‘swamp’ suits it. For it does not know a different life…

“I also wanted to be a psychologist and a sociologist – so I applied to a university’s philosophy department. But what baffled me was not only the requirement that the applicant must be a man, a communist party member, etc., but also the fact that I was told: ‘Do you really want to study how the color of walls influences labor productivity?’ This sent me deep in thought… But I still have a craving for sociology, philosophy, and psychology. And, incidentally, sociological surveys were always printed on Den’s front page from the very beginning as long as they were conducted in Ukraine. Philosophy was, is, and always will be my everlasting love.

“I am not interested in routine work, but can always create something new everywhere. I could found a creative studio – I can give you advice for all instances of your life, all that you want. It is said that woman can make a scandal, a salad, and a hat out of nothing. So can I. I like creative cooking – it is no accident that one of my favorite books is The Kitchen of Five Presidents by a French Elysee Palace cook. It is very interesting. Finally, I could be a creative ‘cook’ in politics (smiles).”

“WE ARE CREATING PRECONDITIONS FOR POLITICS BECAUSE THERE IS NO POLITICS AS SUCH IN UKRAINE SO FAR”

“When asked ‘why don’t you go into politics?’ I say that, in principle, what we are doing is creating preconditions for politics. There is no politics as such in Ukraine do far. It used to exist, but then it was ruined, and now we should perhaps gather these fragments again and lay the groundwork for politics.

“Maybe, I could be a politician because even before I went to school, I would say to my beloved uncle: ‘Uncle, let’s go and talk politics.’ But I consciously refused to take part in Soviet politics, for I knew what it was. The first years of independence may have been the most favorable for participating in this movement, but it was also very interesting in journalism at the time. It was extremely interesting to watch the two elements collide. It is traditionally believed that the then Group 239, the Communists, was very bad, while the creative Popular Movement (Rukh) was very good. I think there was some diffusion. There were all kinds of things in the communist party of the ‘vegetarian-period’ Soviet Union – Social Democrats, Greens, the left, the right, and anticommunists. It was just necessary to take advantage of this. Unfortunately, this did not happen. Weakened by all the previous processes and bereft of true leaders, Ukraine fell hostage to dark forces – ‘bathhouse attendants of first secretaries.’ And all of this potential crumbled. Instead, the Rukh’s potential was not used, either, as an intellectual force. It had the Horyn brothers, people with a broad world-view, but what can be called ‘Rukh Komsomol’ emerged victorious. And, regretfully, they are, after all, also to blame for the victory of the counterrevolution in 1994. How could I go into politics, seeing this picture?

“I watched this battle from a particular angle, but I saw that I could find no participation there. I can only show a different path and formulate what I call a qualitative alternative. Even now politicians say: ‘Oh, we need an alternative.’ Too late, my friends! The alternative should have been created 20 years ago. Seeing where, to what collapse and degradation, this oligarchic process will lead us, we parallelly formed a thin ‘little branch.’ We must turn our eyes on it now and say: ‘What vivifying things have you done? Let us try to join this now in some way.’ Even at that time I drew an analogy with a fairytale, in which a boy walked and threw little stones behind his back in order to find the way back. We did just this. We suggest using these ‘little stones’ to go out of the thicket where latter-day Susanins brought us. The most difficult job is to blaze the trail for different thinking. I liked very much a recent column of our Summer School student Maria Chadiuk who wrote about a changed approach and interpretation (Den, No. 2, January 12, 2017). This should involve a great deal of inner work on oneself, and the ‘grain’ we planted in our Summer School is an encouraging effort, a civic pedagogy of sorts. It is an effort to win over to the side of radiance and quality the disoriented young people who have lived in the atmosphere of a slump and think that it is Ukraine proper. I would like to change their viewpoint.

“I can say that Den is the first long-term volunteer project. We were the first to go to universities. I tried – in various environments – to look for and unite the people who would like to create an absolutely different Ukraine. We have succeeded in many aspects. I must say Ukraine would be slightly different without Den.

“Ukraine needs a revival of interest in quality, its nobility, and elitism. We are always saying that Ukraine must not admire its ability to stage uprisings, mutinies, and protests only. It is necessary to remember aristocratic work in a good, non-caste, sense. Ukraine saw the vast strata of high-quality people – breeders, scientists, scholars – wiped out. All this cannot help but reflect. Above all, we must patch up these ‘holes’ with a new quality.”

“ABOVE ALL, KEEP THE PERSONAL SPACE OF FREEDOM INTACT”

V.S.: “What is the most valuable advice that you received in your life? Did you follow it and what was the result?”

“It was a way of life rather than a piece of verbal advice. Above all, do not get into the force field of dependence – first of all on a state that is not friendly to man. It was the experience of my family which, living at the frontier, took a positive view of this type of behavior – ‘if you can live without interacting with the state, live without it.’ This helped me very much. Nobody spelled out this advice, but I saw this in reality. It was not easy, but it was close to me. This requires a relevantly formed type of thinking – not to blend.

“I said that people should have been ‘denationalized’ in the first post-Soviet years. For the Soviet state made serfs out of everybody, irrespective of their occupation. And very few people survived. And these bearers of a different mentality, who were free and untied to the state chariot – denationalized people – could have become a ‘fermentative material’ for the formation of a new society.

“As a matter of fact, it is difficult to speak about the independence of a state that has no critical mass of independent people.”