On the Lithuanian experience

The 20th century was the period of change for the countries of the socialist camp. 15 countries went through the large social catastrophes over 70 years and their consequences still can be felt. The communist rule practically laid the corner stone of the serious moral crisis that Ukraine has to overcome as soon as possible despite any difficulties. In this context it would be interesting to examine the examples of the successful policy concerning the historical memory of the Baltic countries, in particular, Lithuania’s example. The former head of the Center for the Study of Genocide and Resistance in Lithuania, deputy of the Lithuanian Seimas Dalia KUDYTE who attended the conference “The Lithuanian Experience in Overcoming the Consequences of the Totalitarianism” in Kyiv (organized by the Center for the Study of the Liberation Movement with the assistance of the Lithuanian embassy in Ukraine) told Den about the importance of a spiritual leader for a country and about the ways to return the national history.

“WE HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE NEW LITHUANIAN MENTALITY. WE CANNOT COME BACK TO THE SOVIET PAST”

Ukraine has not worked out the idea of the social consolidation over the last twenty years yet. It seems that the Baltic countries have outstripped us in this.

“It is not true that Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia have only one idea. In 1989 when the Liberty League representatives openly voiced the idea of Lithuania’s independence the question of the national language arose. The Polish minority gave the ultimatum: if the government acknowledges Lithuanian the state language, the Poles will not support Lithuania’s sovereignty. Since then the Lithuanians’ and Poles’ views on the state policy have been different. We often debate about the activity of the Polish Armia Krajowa that really committed crimes in Lithuania which has been proved by the special commission. In their turn, the Poles blame the army of the general Plechavicius (Povilas Plechavicius, the Lithuanian general who headed the Lithuanian Local Squad. – Ed.) that fought against the Armia Krajowa. Such squabbles between the Lithuanians and Poles are very eloquent. In Estonia and Latvia much more serious things happen since in those countries there are a lot of Russians trying to make the locals aggressive though nobody needs it. So, even if a country is small it does not mean that there are no problems in consolidating the society similar to the Ukrainian ones.”

For Ukrainians the question of their national identity has always been topical. What about the Lithuanians?

“It happened that the Jewish and even a part of Russians integrated into the Lithuanian society quite well. They also call Lithuania their motherland and identify themselves as the Lithuanians or Lithuanian Jewish. I cannot say the same about the Poles since there is a certain political problem. However, I believe that 20 years have done their work and we, in our turn, have done our work to return the history. We managed to lay the foundation for the new Lithuanian mentality and I am sure that we will not return to the Soviet past. However, some politicians who consider themselves holier than the Pope speak about the extreme importance of the experience Lithuania gained before the war. Now, when we speak about the liberty of speech and personal liberty, such declarations are very dangerous. There are the attempts to squeeze the Lithuanian society into the limits of some technologies. For example, how do people start families? Only in the church. However, the church, often used by politicians in their purposes, sometimes blackmails the society. Of course, all of this puts the question of modern challenges that the society has to accept. As for the history, we nearly completely agreed on everything. Naturally, there are permanent discussions about the underground armed groups during the World War II. There are people who consider the partisans saints, however, they have to be critical about themselves. I have been always supporting the idea that only the whole truth can unite the nation. Our disagreements about the partisan wars cannot disprove the obvious fact that people died for their freedom and the freedom of the country they considered their homeland. Imagine somebody living in the woods for five years in terrible conditions of cold, famine, and ultimate stress. This person saw their friends dying every day. At a moment this person had a nervous breakdown and shot innocent people… Certainly, people have to be told this truth as well!”

“EVEN TODAY THE RUSSIANS DENY THE FACT THAT THEY OCCUPIED LITHUANIA. SO, THE LITHUANIANS WENT TO SIBERIA ON THEIR OWN INITIATIVE AND SHOT THEMSELVES THERE”

What is the role of religion in the Lithuanian society?

“Eighty percent of Lithuanians call themselves faithful Catholics. The question is what they mean by the word ‘faithful’? Certainly, if the faith means only visiting the church at the main holidays, everything is absolutely clear about these people. The church played an important role before the World War II and within the partisan movement. The dissident movement always counted on its support. I think that today it is important for the church not to be a political player. Priests have to be the people to rely on for the faithful at their hard times, roughly speaking, to be their spiritual mentors. This is what modern Lithuania lacks a lot. The people heading the Lithuanian Catholic church now used to be dissidents. I think, back then they were more politicians than priests and they transferred their worldview on the church. There was the outstanding Lithuanian priest Kazimieras Vasiliauskas (Kazimieras Vasiliauskas, political prisoner who spent many years in the Soviet camps. – Ed.), loved and respected by people a lot, many of us considered him to be our friend and everybody could come to him for a piece of advice. Once, a very interesting story happened: a robber entered Vasiliauskas’s dwelling. Kazimieras was not afraid of the drop-in, gave him some tea and food. After that the robber burst out into tears and repented the crimes he had committed. Today I lack such spiritual authorities.”

What has Lithuania learnt from its Soviet past? What mistakes would you like to avoid?

“We will never accept that we made part of the state that brutally occupied our territory and committed so many crimes against our people. Can you imagine that even today the Russians deny the fact that they occupied Lithuania?! It means that the Lithuanians went to Siberia on their own initiative and shot themselves there. We cannot accept it. Probably, there are some dolts that will accept this state of affairs. Yes, Lithuania has entered the EU and shares its values but it is not enough. We have to implement the European type of thinking into our conservative everyday life.

For example, human rights are something the society is sick without. That is why the political process against Tymoshenko is a very dangerous tendency that significantly alienates Ukraine from the West. It is abnormal when people fear that one of the museums declassifying the KGB archives can be closed because of the political motifs (the National Memorial Museum “The Prison in Lontsky Street” in Lviv. – Ed.). The Ukrainian justice can be given the diagnosis of rhinitis. I hope a lot that the lungs will not be affected and it will not lead to the fatal outcome.”

How did Lithuania resolve the problem of dismantling the Soviet monuments?

“The thing is that any monument cannot be dismantled since it is very valuable for somebody. Probably, people give it the top value because they do not know the history. People just lack the knowledge to assess this or that person. So, this should be started from the common agreement. I have a suggestion: why don’t you announce a competition to create a museum for old monuments. Take all the Soviet monuments to a large museum and make money on it. There is a businessman in Lithuania who made a certain ‘mortuary’ of the Soviet-time monuments and now people from all over the world come to see them. He organized the demonstration of documentaries about Stalin, Lenin and other people, opened souvenir shops on the territory, etc.”

The Soviet mentality took the deep roots in our people’s minds. What do you think are the ways to reeducate people?

“You know, you should focus on the younger generation and carry a dialog with them. Certainly, the people who lived a significant part of their life in the Soviet Union relying not on them but on a leader have difficulties now. Roughly speaking, they do not see any positive tendencies in the society and it seems to me that it is impossible to reeducate them. A journalist from Lviv told me about an interesting experiment. The locals invited about two hundred young people from eastern Ukraine to live in their families. Later those people told that at home they had been scared that western Ukraine was populated with Nazis who start shooting as soon as they hear somebody speaking Russian. However, it turned out that the people in Halychyna are adequate and very kind”.

“PUTIN IS VERY GOOD AT PROVOCATIONS. SOMETIMES IT IS BETTER TO IGNORE THEM”

Russian politicians often use the image of an outer enemy to get the political dividends, whereas in Ukraine they often create an inner enemy using the social differences. What are the trends in Lithuania in this area?

“Lithuania is going through a period of tensions with Poland. The new bill on the education provides that in the eastern part of the country the children in schools will be taught in two languages: 60 percent in Lithuanian and 40 percent in Polish. Take note of the fact that I do not count 150 Polish schools existing now. It is not the problem of the Poles living in Lithuania as it might seem at first glance. It is the problem of the Lithuanian government that did not take the corresponding measures 15 years ago when there were 80 percent of Poles and 20 percent of Lithuanians in the eastern region. It is the evidence of the fact that the young Poles are not proficient enough in Lithuanian to be able to study in Lithuanian universities and make career in Lithuania. I would call it the infringement upon the human rights by the government. They had to give people the possibility to become real citizens of the state and now the time has been lost. So, Radoslaw Sikorski has the reason to be very emotional about Lithuania.”

How does the Lithuanian government react at it?

“We suggest creating a Lithuanian-Polish commission that would be able to get round the table and resolve the topical questions even if it will have to stay until the morning. The Lithuanian minority in the Polish frontier regions feel much worse. On a par with Poland we should objectively assess the situation of the Poles in Lithuania and the Lithuanians in Poland and find out the problems arising in both cases. I hope a lot that then these long and vain discussions will finish.”

You have mentioned Radoslaw Sikorski’s emotional speeches. We have repeated declarations concerning the Ukrainian history, state and politicians made by Vladimir Putin.

“Obviously, Putin’s declarations are often provocative. Putin is very good at provocations since everyone knows in which organization he made his career. Sometimes it is better just to ignore them; however you should understand their context. On the one hand, the Russian prime minister affords saying absurd things about the independent state. On the other hand, he violently reacts to the declarations concerning Tymoshenko’s process made by the EU and calls them the intervention in Ukraine’s internal affairs. So, we should think over the national priorities and the managerial emphases placed by politicians”.