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Where there is no law, but every man does what is right in his own eyes, there is the least of real liberty
Henry M. Robert

Derek FRASER: "It is hard to get the Canadian business community interested in coming to Ukraine" 

24 November, 1998 - 00:00

Derek R. T. Fraser, Canada's Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador
to Ukraine, recently began his work in Ukraine. In introducing himself,
he jokingly explains that he is from Canada's Transcarpathia: British Columbia.
Canada's long partnership with and interest in Ukraine is explained by
the human factor: one million ethnic Ukrainians live in Canada. Ukraine's
natural resources and congenial climate reinforce that interest. Why did
Jean ChrОtien maintain his decision to come to Ukraine even when his visit
to Russia was cancelled? Will the Canadian government apologize to Canadians
of Ukrainian origin for their internment during World War I? Canada's Ambassador
answered these and many other questions in his interview with The Day.

Q. Canada was one of the first countries to recognize independent
Ukraine. How do you as its representative see the progress and problems
of the last seven years?

A. It seems to me that Ukraine is attempting two major transitions:
from an authoritarian system to pluralism and from a state, to a market
economy. Each of these transitions is hard enough. To do both together,
requires special patience. As far as the Canadian government is concerned,
we will continue to accompany Ukraine on its road of political and economic
reforms. We will do this for two major reasons. The first is that we feel
profoundly a part of European civilization; what happens in Europe is important
to us. As of next year we will have had troops in Europe for sixty years.
We were one of the founding members of NATO. The historical records will
show that the idea of NATO was partially launched in discussions between
Canada and Britain as a means of keeping the United States formally anchored
in Europe. We are a member of OSCE, an organization which has as its informal
principle that Europe runs from Vancouver to Vladivostok. Up to 1993 at
least, Canada had provided more help on a per capita basis to the countries
of Central and Eastern Europe then any other Western country except for
the Federal Republic of Germany.

The ties with Ukraine have a particular quality because the human elements
that link our two countries. There are a million Canadians of Ukrainian
origin. They are in all walks of life in Canada. At various times the Governor
General, the Deputy Prime Minister, and the Minister of Finance have all
been Ukrainians.  Two of our provincial Premiers are Ukrainians. As
a result of these human ties,  we have an instinctive sense of solidarity
with Ukraine.  It was there in Soviet times, it exists now, and will
continue in the future. We have provided more help on a per capita basis
to Ukraine then any other Western country and more, for example, than to
Russia. We recognize that the reforms in Ukraine have not gone as fast
as some Ukrainians or Ukrainian-Canadians had hoped initially. Nevertheless,
Canada remains committed to Ukraine.

Q. Early last year an unprecedented Canadian economic mission to
Ukraine was planned. Now we know that there will be an official visit by
Prime Minister Jean ChrОtien instead. Doesn't this mean a downgrading of
the visit and that Canada is dissatisfied with the course of reform in
Ukraine and dubious about the prospects for Ukrainian-Canadian economic
cooperation?

A. In the original planning, Team Canada was to have brought
the Prime Minister, the Premiers of all the provinces, and businessmen
to Ukraine, to Russia, and Poland. The economic crisis has forced us to
reconsider the idea of bringing such a large number of businessmen at this
time. It was hard to get the business community as interested as we had
hoped. The visit that it is now planned is an official visit by the Prime
Minister.  At the same time quite a few businessmen are coming. Although
a visit has not been possible to arrange at this time to Russia, nevertheless,
the Prime Minister is coming to Ukraine anyway.

Q. What are Canada's general economic interests in Ukraine? What
difficulties do Canadian businessmen encounter here that prevent many Canadian
businessmen from doing business in Ukraine?

A. The principal areas of interest are agriculture, energy, and
construction. There are various difficulties. There is a problem of a lack
of transparency and consistency in laws and regulations, and there is the
matter of the sanctity of contracts: if someone undertakes an obligation
to pay a certain amount of money, then the money should be paid. The customs
procedures are more complicated than in other countries. It is more difficult
to register companies here. The international standards for goods and services
are not applied here.

There is in spite of this an interest in Canada in investing in Ukraine
and doing business here. Ukraine is potentially a very wealthy country;
it has one of the most important agricultural potentials in the world.
It is well understood that this country was one of the great sources of
food for the world before the First World War.  Its energy resources
are in our view underestimated. Within a few years this country could be
self-sufficient in energy. What we have to offer Ukraine is advanced technology
in both agriculture and energy.  In spite of a climate that is more
difficult than that of Ukraine and soil that is not as fertile, we have
adapted to  become one of the leading producers of agricultural goods
in the world.

Similarly, in spite of the fact that our geology is more difficult
than that of Ukraine, we have become a significant producer of oil and
gas. So we have very useful techniques which can be of benefit to Ukraine.

Q. Your Excellency, you state that Ukraine can become a major agricultural
exporter, but our Left retains many opponents of private property in land.
What arguments can you make in favour of it?

A. I think you only have to look at the statistics of agricultural
production in Ukraine. Although only a small percentage of the land is
in private hands, it produces a major part of the agricultural wealth.

The historic experience is simply this: countries that have private
land ownership are far more productive in agriculture than countries that
don't. When people know that the money is going into their own pockets,
they do a far better job. In Canada less than 3% of the population still
farm, yet they feed the entire population, and produce an enormous amount
of grain for export throughout the world.

Q. Some world agencies estimate that Canada has created the best
conditions for the life of the average citizen. Because of this and in
view of the long-standing ties between our countries, many Ukrainians would
now like to emigrate to your country. But in recent years Ukrainians have
made up only one percent of your immigrants, significantly less that the
percentage of Ukrainians in the overall Canadian population. Why?

A. Let me describe the principles of Canadian immigration policy.
The first is that it is not discriminatory. There is no quota for any particular
nationality.  Everyone is put on an equal basis. In recent years the 
majority of immigrants have been coming from the Asian-Pacific area. The
second factor is that immigration is inherently a very difficult thing
for anyone who undertakes it. In some ways you have to relearn a major
part of what you have acquired  up until then. The selection process
for independent immigrants therefore is very rigorous. In the first place,
in order to ensure that a perspective immigrant can have a job, he or she
has to have a profession for which there are openings in Canada. Then,
he or she has to be very adaptable and this often means being below a certain
age. Then it helps a lot if the person knows one of two official languages
of Canada. The question of health is very important as well as, needless
to say, personal character.

The first wave of immigration from Ukraine came in 1890s when we were
looking for people who were used to a similar climate to open up our prairies. 
The second wave was between the two World Wars. The third wave was after
the Second World War.  We are now having the fourth wave of Ukrainian
immigration to Canada.  I'm constantly meeting Canadian businessmen
who may have left Ukraine only ten years ago, but who are now coming back
to do business in Ukraine.

Q. Canadian citizen Stepan Bandera in an interview with The Day
stated that Ukrainian-Canadians still await an apology from the Canadian
government for the internment of Ukrainians in camps during World War I.
What do you think about this?

A.  In the first world war, there were no camps for Ukrainians
as such in Canada. There were camps for enemy aliens, including Austrian
citizens. Some people of Ukrainian ethnic origin who happened to be Austrian
citizens at the outbreak of the war were interned.  Those Ukrainians
who did not posses Austrian citizenship were not interned.  Internment
of enemy aliens is a normal wartime precaution, although in the Second
World War, I think we were sensible enough to recognize that many people
who were of nominal German or Austrian citizenship were our friends and
not our enemies.

The demand from certain Ukrainian Canadians for compensation for the
internment of certain members of the Ukrainian Canadian community in World
War I arose because of our handling of the Japanese Canadian community. 
In World War II we interned people of Japanese origin, whether or not they
were Japanese citizens or even born in Japan.  After the war this
action was criticized in Canada as having been racist.  Eventually
the Canadian government offered an apology and compensation to those who
had been treated this way. Since then various other groups who suffered
internment in either World War have been saying, well if the Japanese-Canadians
got compensation, what about us? The difference is that others were interned
because of their enemy  citizenship and not because of their racial
origin. In November we celebrated the eightieth anniversary of the end
of the First World War.  What happened then is beginning to become
rather ancient history.

Q. How do you view the future of Quebec?

A. One of the great problems that faces present, and future members
of European Union is how different countries and cultures can live together
in increasing intimacy, while maintaining their own particularities. In
that context, perhaps Canada, Switzerland, and Belgium provide examples
for the future of all of Europe. Where we have succeeded, it has been because
we have recognized the need to put all cultures on a more or less equal
basis.  This has meant achieving a high degree of linguistic equality
and very often recognizing for the minority cultural group a particular
status.

If one takes a look at history, one usually finds that after the minority
culture has had a cultural awakening, it has sought cultural equality and
improvement in its status.  In the case of Canada, there was a cultural
awaking in Quebec that began around the end of World War II and led to
a profound political renewal from 1960 on. As a result, Quebec has sought
linguistic equality and a better recognition of its special position in
Canada.

The referendums that two Quebec governments have had were an instrument
in trying to negotiate a different arrangement with the rest of Canada.
In the most recent referendum in 1995 what the present Quebec government
sought was apparently a confederal arrangement with a consultative parliament
and a cabinet each composed of equal numbers from Quebec and the rest of
the country, a common citizenship and a common currency, but a separate
seat for Quebec in the United Nations.  Because of the very vague
nature of the question that was put in this referendum, up to a third of
those who voted in favour of this proposition thought they were merely
voting in favour of reforming the existing federal constitution.

Because Canada is a country founded on tolerance and democracy, we eventually
are going to solve the question of Quebec's position within Canada. Recent
public opinion surveys show that 68-70% of Quebecers want to remain within
Canada.  They would prefer constitutional reforms within the existing
federation rather than a confederation. Only 30% are after independence
for Quebec.

Q. Perhaps even before you came here you heard about our various
problems. Did you find it hard to come here?

A. Last January I was given three choices: one was to remain
as ambassador in Greece, a country I very much like. The other was to go
to another country as Ambassador, and the third was to come to Ukraine.
I chose Ukraine.

Q. Some Ukrainians now living in Canada have the impression that
people there associate Ukraine only with Chornobyl. Was this due to a lack
of information?

A. My impression after my years in the diplomatic service is
that you never know any country until you have lived there. The image that
the press displays of other countries is often a distortion. It consists
of the bad news, the disasters, the sensations, the crime. I'm surprised
nevertheless at your friends' impressions. I doubt the average Canadian
believes that the average Ukrainian is radioactive.  As far as Chornobyl
is concerned, Canada is prepared to contribute to any aid package.

Q. Your Excellency, would you be kind enough to conclude with a few
words about yourself and your first impressions about Ukraine?

A. I am originally from the Transcarpathian area of Canada, British
Columbia. I was educated first in history and then in law in Vancouver.
I'm married.  We have four children. My wife is finishing some studies
at Harvard and will join me in May.  We have two daughters at the
University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

One son is in the Foreign Ministry, and one son in business in Vancouver.
As far as my hobbies are concerned, my principal pastime is learning about
the country I happen to be living in. I hope to get to know Ukraine, its
language, its culture, its geography as deeply as possible within the next
three years. I am looking forward very much to the cultural life of Ukraine. 
I have to admit, however, that up until now I have spent more evenings
unpacking boxes than I have in going to the opera.

 

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