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Where there is no law, but every man does what is right in his own eyes, there is the least of real liberty
Henry M. Robert

YURI DUBININ: "RUSSIA DOES NOT NEED TO BE A SUPER-STATE"

6 March, 1999 - 00:00

Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, Natalia VIKULINA,
Serhiy ZGURETS, Oleksa PIDLUTSKY, Tetiana POLISHCHUK, Dmytro SKRIABIN,
, The Day

The Russian Ambassador in Ukraine considers strategic partnership too narrow
a term for the relations between Kyiv and Moscow. Yuri Dubinin belongs
to the Soviet school of diplomacy. But he cannot be numbered among the
doves of USSR diplomats. When over than two years ago Russian Deputy Minister
of Foreign Affairs Dubinin was assigned to be Ambassador in Ukraine some
politicians and mass media in Kyiv spoke against signing his agrement.
But in the new office Mr. Dubinin showed that he can be not only tough
but also flexible.

The Day: Finally the Grand Treaty between Russia and Ukraine
has been ratified by both houses of the Russian Parliament. But on the
eve of this event Russian television conducted the direct poll of it audience
and nine of ten callers spoke against ratification. And the very process
of ratification was far from smooth. What are such attitudes connected
with?

Ambassador Dubinin: The most important thing is that the treaty
is ratified. This is an event of great importance for strengthening mutual
trust between Russia and Ukraine and further developing cooperation between
them. Yes, the debates were emotional, and very sharp statements could
be heard. But the discussion showed a great deal of deep and sincere popular
interest in the way they see the relations between Russia and Ukraine.
And these voices should be listened to in the course of the treaty's execution
and general enrichment of our relations.

The Day: What was the role of your Prime Minister's personality?

DUBININ: It was decisive. During the second consideration of
the Treaty Mr. Primakov spoke for its ratification and offered a suitable
formulation concerning ratification of the Black Sea fleet agreements that
was positively taken by the majority of Senators, and this contributed
to the positive vote.

The Day: Is conditional ratification in accordance with world
diplomatic practice?

Ambassador: The ratification is full-fledged. The resolution
of the Soviet of Federation reads: "To approve of the Federal law On Ratification
of the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership Between the Russian
Federation and Ukraine."

The Council of the Federation only suggested not to put the Treaty into
action until Verkhovna Rada ratifies three basic agreements on the Black
Sea fleet. This is a political wish. It means that we will exchange ratification
documents after Verkhovna Rada ratifies the fleet agreements. As a matter
of fact, the Ukrainian party suggested the same thing.

The Day: Do you think it possible that in twenty years the
Russian Black Sea fleet might leave Ukraine? And another question: the
number of personnel and fighting equipment of Russian Black Sea fleet in
Crimea is regulated by a relevant Ukrainian-Russian agreement and the Treaty
on Limiting Conventional Arms in Europe. Nevertheless, the German delegation
that recently checked the treaty execution in Crimea recorded that the
Russians exceed the established quotas, of tanks in particular. What are
your comments on these infringements?

Ambassador: I am convinced that discussing some hypothetical
possibilities would be a waste of time.

As for the Black Sea fleet, additional agreements that would render
some points concrete are needed. And they should be worked on more actively.

The Day: What do you think of the CIS future?

Ambassador: The process of major reforms in the CIS is underway.
And all the member states are interested in this. The desire of member
states for contacts can be felt more and more distinctly, and it instills
confidence.

The Day: But Uzbekistan has already declared its withdrawal
from the Treaty on CIS collective security, while Georgia and Azerbaijan
are also considering such a step. It looks like Russia has nothing to counter
this.

Ambassador: Participation in the Treaty on collective security
is voluntary. I do not understand why Russia must counter anybody with
something.

The Day: Is it not a super-state?

Ambassador: We do not strive for such a role. Russia is quite
satisfied with being one of five great states that are permanent members
of the UN Security Council.

The Day: Could you name the spheres where our relations are
developing best and where they are least developed?

Ambassador: The major achievements of our relations lie in the
sphere of politics - it is once again the Grand Treaty, the ratification
of which became top news for all world news agencies.

In the economic sphere there are both pluses and minuses. Unfortunately,
it is fashionable in the mass media now to cover only the minuses. There
are some reasons for this - last year the goods flow between our states
was somewhat reduced. But it was about $12.5 billion! Ukraine's second
foreign trade partner is four times behind Russia according to this index!
And think, what $12.5 billion means for Russia and what it means for Ukraine.
It is of enormous mutual benefit.

Or let us take for example the cooperation in the sphere of automotive
industry. Last year the output of Gazelle automobiles in Ukraine rose twofold
to 7000 units. They are assembled not only in Simferopol but also in the
Kyiv region. GAZ (Gorky Automobile Factory) has developed a great deal
lately. Gazelle modifications were modernized, and they proved to be quite
competitive.

Russia and Ukraine together presented the world tender on the AN-70
aircraft that was estimated by many foreign specialists as the best in
the world in its class. Its designers, who propounded its concept many
years ago and went through with its realization under very complicated
circumstances, deserve all possible praise. And there are many other such
examples. But, of course, the goods flow between our states should be three
times larger, as it is provided by our program of cooperation to the year
2007.

The sphere of cultural exchange is well developed, too. In Kyiv I often
have occasions to visit concerts of Russian performers of various schools
and trends. And the hall is always full. Kyiv Russian Drama Theater and
Ivan Franko Theater were a big success in Moscow. And all this is under
free competition, where people choose what they like. Thus a simple truth
is proved: we can draw boundaries on maps and on land, but souls and hearts
cannot be divided.

The Day: Soon the presidential race will begin, and the Russian
mass media are very influential in Ukraine. Which candidate will they support?
Which candidate is most desirable for Russia?

Ambassador: Russia is very cautious in everything concerning
Ukraine's internal affairs. The Ukrainian audience and readers of Russian
mass media often complain to Moscow editors' offices that television and
newspapers pay too little attention to events in Ukraine. As for Russian
diplomats, they never break the general ethical rule of respect towards
Ukraine's internal affairs.

The Day: Diplomats of such high level as yours speak several
foreign languages. Do you speak Ukrainian?

Ambassador: When I came here, I was very much interested in what
Russian and Ukrainian languages have in common. Having read a textbook
I started studying Ukrainian from a book about Yaroslav the Wise and Volodymyr
the Great. It was a little difficult at first, but then I got through it.
After that I read another two or three books, including fairy tales. I
achieved certain results. When somebody speaks Ukrainian to me, I listen
with pleasure and never ask he switch to Russian. I used another method:
listening to some Ukrainian songs and trying to recognize all the words.

Of course, Shevchenko's poems are translated into Russian. But it was
the first time here that I read his works in the original language. By
the way, he also wrote wonderful poems in Russian.

I have many reasons to be interested in Ukrainian. One of my grandmothers'
family name was Monchenko, and in my native region people sing both Russian
and Ukrainian songs.

The Day: Several newspapers wrote that there is a rumor you
are going to be discharged, and it is nearly approved. Where does this
rumor come from?

Ambassador: All diplomats one day take office, and someday they
leave it. This is natural. But there are some ethical rules that should
be kept toward foreign representatives.

The Day: What were your impressions of our country when you
just came here and what are they now, after you have worked here for two
years?

Ambassador: My impressions get better and better. I knew Ukraine
a little even before I came here as ambassador. It is a great mighty country,
with enormous potential in the sphere of science and industry. Of course,
I did not know before that the Ukrainian intellectual elite is so rich,
that there are so many not only connoisseurs but also creators of culture,
especially in theatrical sphere. And the high linguistic skills of journalists
are impressive.

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