Jan Malicki:

Every year about 100 young Ukrainians receive scholarships from the Center for East European Studies at the University of Warsaw. Since 1990 over 2,000 scholars, teachers, and students have completed different programs there — more than in any other program in Poland. Jan Malicki, a former member of opposition and now an influential public person and an expert in East European issues, is the founder and the director of the Center. He gave an exclusive interview to The Day and told about the work of the Center. He also commented on some of the international events bearing on European security.

What is the situation with the recognition of Ukrainian diplomas in Poland, in particular at the University of Warsaw?

“We are using a system in which a two-year course in Eastern studies, which in the Bologna system has the so-called second level, requires that the foreign applicants have a master’s or specialist’s diploma.

“Of course, applicants may ask: What do you want from me? I already have higher education and a master’s diploma. Let me explain. First, in Ukraine students graduate from high school and enter higher education institutions one or two years earlier than in Poland, and this gap is a great difference in person’s maturity. We are interested in having people who are more mature and match Polish students in terms of maturity and age. Second, I want applicants to be experienced, because once they enrol, they may not be able to adjust, meet our requirements, and compete with the Polish students.”

Mr. Malicki, you are a noted expert in Eastern issues. What is your assessment of the future of Poland-Russia relations after Vladimir Putin’s most recent visit to Poland? You are aware of the distortions in the interpretations of historical, but Poland’s dependence on Russian gas and oil is a serious argument.

“Our future relations will depend, naturally, more on Russia than Poland. The Polish government has done a lot to harmonize them. There are certain actions on the part of the Russian government, on the level of beliefs, toward making history less than the most important item, while giving more prominence to the present and the future.

“But why does this depend on Russia now? Because there are certain limits that Poland cannot cross. This country will never accept the statement that the Soviet Union was not an aggressor regarding Poland in 1939. Nor will it reject the thesis that the USSR and Hitler divided Poland. No Pole will deny the fact that Katyn was a crime that had elements of genocide. If we have a document that says that the Politburo members adopted a decision to destroy 2,000 people because they were Poles, this cannot be called a war crime, as the Russian side insists. Finally, attempts to claim that this was perpetrated by Germans are ridiculous, because Poles know everything Germans did at the time. So there must be certain limits dictated by common sense.

“The question is really this: Is Russia serious in its desire to harmonize its relations with Poland and, in a sense, normalize historical contradictions? Poland does not expect Russia to beg forgiveness on its knees, but Poland cannot let Russia spread lies about Katyn — that this did not happen or that Germans committed this crime. In this respect everything depends on the Russian side.

“The second threat that I perceive lies in the prevailing Russian political thought. If Russia thinks in democratic terms in its relations with Poland, our relations will, no doubt, stabilize. However, if Russia’s policy develops along the lines of ‘spheres of influence,’ I am not sure that the Poland-Russia relations will be normalized, so much so that this kind of policy will mean increased pressure on the Caucasus and Georgia, Ukraine and the Baltic States. This will evoke a natural reaction from Poland, which will try to help these countries. So the future of the Poland-Russia relations is more in the hands of Russia than Poland.”

In what way will the rapprochement between the US and Russia affect Poland, after the US has dropped its plans to install an anti-missile facility in Poland? Will this lead to Ukraine being left without the US support in the international arena?

“My forecast is rather gloomy. I am afraid that we have been sold, because we see signs of understanding between the US and Russia, and one can only guess at the price that the US has paid. Poland has been sold, because it had to have an anti-missile shield and military support but now will not have them.

“The question is: What did the US give Russia in exchange for cooperation on Afghanistan and Iran? It can already be seen that the US will not be involved in Georgia’s affairs and, I am afraid, Ukraine’s affairs as it was under Bush. The worst-case scenario would be if the US supported Russia’s lines of influence on the post-Soviet territory. This would be, no doubt, a tragic situation. I warn you that I do not rule out this possibility, because if we don’t take into account even the worst future scenarios, the surprise may be very painful. Every country must think about its future and take care of it.”

Do you believe that the Iron Curtain may return, this time installed by Russia?

“No. A lack of aid is more likely. There will be independent countries, but they will be left without any support from the democratic world. Then it will turn out that all major decisions in the East are made in Moscow. Ukraine or Georgia will not be able to wait long enough to get help from the world. This is the worst-case scenario.”

Regarding Ukraine’s place in the Poland–Ukraine–Russia triangle — in your opinion, what should be Ukraine’s top priorities if it wants to remain independent? It is known that the Georgian scenario may be applied to Ukraine, in particular to the Crimea.

“Formally, Ukraine’s independence is not threatened. In my opinion, Russia will not dare strip Ukraine of its independence, because this will do damage to Russia itself. Control and influence on the life of the Ukrainian state are the more likely targets.

“Regarding priorities, this is quite simple. The Ukrainian political elites have to find the answer. I believe that today they are unable to answer the question: Does Ukraine want to be a democratic country seriously moving toward the West, to stand on the crossroads, or to gravitate toward the East? The answer to this simple question will solve all problems! If the western direction is chosen, Ukraine has to enter NATO, tackle state reforms, and seek EU membership. Then Ukraine will definitely have to reject many temptations, but the goal is worth the sacrifice. Poland also had to reject many things, but today we are not afraid of Moscow’s decision on Warsaw. We are backed by the biggest guarantors of security — the EU and NATO — that protect its members.

“If Ukraine ultimately says that it has to stand on the crossroads or move toward the East, then stop lying to yourself and saying that you are moving to Europe but the bad EU doesn’t want to accept you! Of course, you can have 27 strategic allies, but there will be specific consequences. Then Russia will be the primary moving force.

“I laugh when I hear claims that Poland wants to get Ukraine back. Every historian understands what kind of entity the Polish Commonwealth was and what was really the situation with the equality of religion and nation.

“So the answer has to be given by the contemporary Ukrainian political elites. If the West is chosen, then economic reforms, army reinforcement, and the destruction of corruption have to be achieved.”

In July 2009, on the occasion of the 440th anniversary of the Union of Lublin, you were awarded the Commandor Cross of the Polonia Restituta Order for outstanding contribution to promoting the knowledge of common historical heritage of the people that created Poland. Let me congratulate you on this event! Mr. Malicki, are you satisfied with the award?

“Thank you. Yes, I am extremely pleased, because the Commandor Cross of the Polonia Restituta Order is one of the highest and oldest decorations. It was introduced by Jozef Pilsudski in 1921 during Poland’s revival. I was awarded the cross in a touching atmosphere and circumstances. On the one hand, this is an important historical date, and the awarding ceremony was held in an ancient castle in Lublin. On the other hand, it is a great honor to receive the award from the Polish president in the presence of other presidents, including Viktor Yushchenko. This award spurs me to further action in the eastern direction.”