Igor Chubais:

The readers of Den/The Day are familiar with the name of Igor Chubais. His article “Who Destroyed Stalinism” attracted keen interest. In it Igor Chubais stressed the special role played by the Ukrainian Yevhen Hrytsiak in leading the 1953 Norilsk prison camp uprising. This marked the beginning of an interesting story. When launching The Day’s photo exhibit in Ivano-Frankivsk, the editor in chief and staff journalists made their acquaintance with Hrytsiak, and asked him to sign a copy of his book The Norilsk Uprising for Igor Chubais (complying with his personal request).

Igor Chubais received this signed copy last Friday and we took advantage of the situation to have an interview with him.

Mr. Chubais, what are your impressions from another meeting with Ukrainian, Georgian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Moldovan, and Estonian colleagues? How important are such meetings for the information space of our countries?

“I remember meeting my Ukrainian colleagues this April, in the course of the Moscow-Kyiv Public Dialog. I felt totally differently during the debate and afterward, writing a book on this event. Of course, meetings such this one are useful — primarily because there are communication channels in Ukraine, despite your critical attitude to the powers that be. Your government is responding to society, even if in what you consider to be an inadequate manner. In Russia, regrettably, the situation is different, with no attempts whatsoever being made to influence those in power. Those who wield power there have long ensconced themselves in their own secure environment and are busy solving their own problems. In a word, there is vertical chain of political command in Russia, complimented with a vertical structure of ‘unanimous support,’ so those on top are ignoring all signals from downstairs. This is a serious problem that faces Russia; its omnipotent political system is digging its own grave.”

What causes this kind of policy? Isn’t it likely to eventually backfire?

“The reasons behind all this are perfectly clear. I agree with the point voiced during the workshop seminar today: while Georgia’s leadership and political course kept changing, the relations with Russia kept going from bad to worse.

“Russia’s current political leadership is aiming at reinstating the rules of the Soviet game. They want to make it legitimate by referring to Stalin’s image; they have proclaimed themselves as successors to all of Stalin’s fake achievements. By contrast, Ukraine is moving in an altogether different direction. Hence the problems — and I mean problems for the Kremlin, not for Ukraine. At this point I find it hard to visualize the Russian government making a U-turn, even if hard pressed to do so, and proclaiming Ukraine as its friend. Of course, I’m all out for this, but this is virtually impossible, not with [Russia’s] current political leadership.”

During today’s meeting you said, “Help us get back to our past, trace our roots.” You meant the Russian empire, but its attitude to Ukraine is common knowledge. It regarded Ukraine as part of its territory. This makes one wonder: Why should Ukraine help you?

“This is a very complex question, of course. Let me try to answer it in brief. Before the end of the Russian empire, before the Bolsheviks seized power, this empire faced three major problems. All stemmed from the fact that Europe was then engulfed by a religious crisis that also affected Eastern Orthodox Christianity as the foundation of Russia’s vital activities. There had appeared atheists followed by terrorists who no longer regarded the tsar as a political ruler by His Grace.

“In the first place Russia was badly in need of political democratization. This problem was solved by the first Russian Revolution (1905–07). Second, Russia had to carry out the land reform. The task was to get the land and avoid collectivization. This problem was also solved by Stolypin’s reform. Third, Russia’s biggest problem had everything to do with interethnic relations.

“This problem was never solved — and this problem remains topical today, in Russia and anywhere else in the world. I flew to London several months ago and stayed with a British historian for several weeks. At one point he asked me: How do we, the British and the Irish, solve our problem, considering that we are so different? The Russification policies of Alexander III and Nicholas II of Russia alienated Finland and, eventually, Ukraine, although both territories wanted only one thing at the time: autonomy. St. Petersburg wasn’t prepared to grant it to them, but this doesn’t mean that Russian history is wrong from beginning to end.”

You have mentioned that Russia’s leadership is now trying to reinstate the Soviet rules of the game. I might as well add “imperial rules,” although both are unacceptable to Ukraine.

“We shouldn’t get back to the past and borrow old methods; this would really be unacceptable today. I suggest that we reform our past and start where Stolypin stopped. After all, this is the course followed by all the Baltic and Eastern European countries. After their communist regime collapsed, they took very important steps. Latvia, for example, reinstated and then suspended overnight the constitution adopted before the Soviet occupation, in order to carry out the constitutional reform. This was followed by a nationwide lustration and restitution campaign. I other words, this country restored its identity. Russia must also follow this course, although it is much harder in our case, considering that we followed the communist pathways for 70, not 40, years.”

Which phase do you think Ukraine is passing through?

“Ukraine is still searching for its identity. I find proof of this every time I visit your country. You appear to be holding endless discussions on what is right for Ukraine, Kyivan Rus’ or the later period. One thing is clearly apparent: the Soviet period remains unacceptable. I’m sure that Ukraine must determine its own way of life.

“The way I see it, it’s not only the Orient that’s made up of several civilizations — the Far East, Central Asia, China, and so on. Europe also has distinct civilizations; it has two subsystems made up respectively of the successors to Western Rome and Eastern Rome (Byzantium). In this sense, Ukraine and Russia are successors to the Eastern Roman Empire. Ukraine is having a hard time when Russia fails to realize this and follows some incomprehensible Soviet political course.

“I further believe that Ukraine’s Europeanization on its way to the West is tantamount to the loss of Ukrainian identity. The situation is very complicated. In my opinion, if Ukraine could restore its historical values and remain an Eastern European country, it would retain its identity. However, carrying out this task is very difficult without Russia. Therefore, Ukraine should learn from its Soviet experience, and then forget all about it.

“Several years ago, I spoke with a lady, a Serbian diplomat. She told me, ‘You know that we love Russia so much, that we’re so close to your country, yet we have to move in the EU and NATO direction, because you [i.e., Russia] have lost everything and you’re behaving the wrong way!’ The Serbs realize that they’re losing their Serbian identity, and I think Ukraine is faced with the same threat. Therefore, Ukraine and Russia should start restoring their values.”

While Ukraine is trying to find its way, do you, Russia’s liberals, feel any support from Ukraine?

“Freud wrote that an individual feeling ill at ease, for whatever reasons, doesn’t need money or fame — just an opportunity to speak his or her mind. Therefore, aid from Ukraine mostly consists in your country being the way it is, showing Russia a way to solve its problems. The sooner Ukraine can get back on its feet — which is my heartfelt desire — the better for Russia. Keep up the good job and keep in mind that not all people in Russia are feeling unfriendly toward Ukraine. It’s just that we have too many thoroughly brainwashed individuals. Consider the impact of whatever you do in Ukraine on Russia. Also, remember that Russia is Ukraine’s closest neighbor, regardless of certain things still setting these countries far apart.“

It’s important for Ukrainian readers to find in your articles proof of your understanding of this brainwashing effect, including history. The same is true of Yevhen Hrytsiak. Many residents of Ivano-Frankivsk oblast are used to their understanding of local history, quite often failing to realize that they’re extremely fortunate to be living next to such summits. Many of them were glad to learn that Den’s article about Hrytsiak’s Norilsk Uprising was by the Russian Igor Chubais.

“You can see a summit only at a distance. That’s true. You almost never notice anything around.”

The President of Ukraine met with Hrytsiak on Ukrainian Independence Day and handed him the Order for Courage.

“He did? The man really deserves it.”

We feel happy about this.

“This is proof that there is a civil society in Ukraine.”

Too bad Andrei Sakharov can no longer represent Russia, although there are people who realize that he was a great personality. Thankfully, Ukraine can be represented by personalities like Hrytsiak. There were many good people among the prisoners of conscience under the Soviets. The surviving ones should meet.

“Yes, it is important for Russia to comprehend this. Let me tell you something. They often complain in Ukraine about Russia doing this and that. Why? Russia’s polls often reflect a negative public attitude to democracy. This is an utterly wrong formula. The thing is not the Russian attitude but the way Russians are brainwashed. Back in 2000, 18 percent of the respondents believed that Stalin was a great politician, but after Putin came to power, it was 53 percent. This is an issue to do with the way the masses are informed. Ukraine should at least bear in mind the need to provide [true] information about Russia. In fact, we need a new radio broadcasting company.

“The BBC’s Russian Service appears to be more loyal to the Kremlin than the First Channel. Radio Liberty is keeping a low profile. Americans will never figure out the difference between Soviet and post-Soviet realities. We’re the only ones who can do so, along with the Poles and Hungarians.

“This summer there was a letter signed by 22 Central and Eastern European politicians addressing the US president, who stressed the presence of yet another aspect and dimension that Washington has remained blind to and that there are countries that have succeeded in getting out of this trap. It would be good if these countries combined efforts in establishing something like Radio Russia. The trouble is that people in Russia are ill-informed. Whenever I raise the matter of Holodomor as an act of genocide, I hear in reply – you made it up. This isn’t because our people are bad but because they don’t know the truth. The problem is getting and disseminating this truthful information. This information is badly needed. After providing it, there will be an opportunity of acting further.”

What we have to do now is encourage Russia to read our periodicals. We’re hard put to keep Den’ as a Ukrainian/Russian daily, but we’re doing our best so that post-Soviet intellectuals on both sides could communicate. And we also have an English-language digest, The Day, for the rest of the world.

Would you please comment on Andrei Piontkovsky’s comment on the Schroederization of Europe? Personally I believe that it was a heavy blow to Russia’s intellectual community, leaving those intellectuals between a rock and a hard place — between a markedly servile politicized Europe that is overly excited to have its gas storage facilities filled to capacity and Russia’s political leadership. End of discussion of values.

“All they want from Russia is oil and gas. They care nothing about what’s happening in Russia.”

Well, we do.

“Yes, because we’re living next door.”

We’re also wishing Russia well; we wish your intellectual, progressive, democratic forces the best of success.

“I guess Ukraine will find handling this problem single-handedly very hard; our countries are indeed closely linked — and this isn’t idle talk but stating a fact. You can’t go this way alone. It’s physically impossible, and it will lead you nowhere.”

Europe appears to be scared to accept Ukraine as a single entity.

“I would say that Europe has left you to your own devices, simply because Europe has its own interests in mind and doesn’t give a damn about anything else. It is really difficult to maintain one’s balance between two centers of influence. Ukraine is now in a danger area, with the Collective Security Treaty Organization on the one hand and NATO on the other. Therefore, I believe that changing the situation would serve not only Russia’s interests, but also those of the neighboring countries that have always been there to lend a hand. We must think of ways to influence the situation in Russia. I don’t know how much longer the Soviet Union would have existed without its citizens listening to the Voice of America and Radio Liberty.”

In the book Dvi Rusi I asked whether there was anything we could do to help Russia. We have always wanted our newspaper to offer room for free exchange of ideas between clever people who realize that nnfree Ukrainian and Russian media can change this post-Soviet space.

“There is this good old Polish motto: For Your Freedom and Ours! — this sounds equally topical in both Ukrainian and Russian.”