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Ihor OSTASH: the history of Canada can be an example of how national history should be written

28 April, 00:00
MICHA LLE JEAN, GOVERNOR-GENERAL OF CANADA, PUT A LIT CANDLE TO THE MEMORIAL OF HOLODOMOR VICTIMS IN KYIV AND HONORED THE MEMORY OF THOSE WHO DIED IN 1932—1933 WITH A MINUTE OF SILENCE / Photo from the official website of Ukraine’s President Viktor Yushchenko

Most of the Ukrainians know that Canada is the world’s second largest country famous for ice hockey and a sizable community of the citizens of Ukrainian origin. Why does Canada remain attractive for immigrants from all nooks and crannies of the world? Why does it support, by contrast with the old European countries, Ukraine’s integration into NATO? Why has Canada recognized the Holodomor as genocide of the Ukrainian nation and what is its attitude to history? How is the Country of the Maple Leaf solving the problems of meeting the needs of indigenous nations and ethnic minorities and of bilingualism? This is the subject of an exclusive interview with Ihor OSTASH, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Ukraine to Canada, who is accompanying Canada’s Governor-General Micha lle Jean who is on an official visit to this country.

Mr. Ambassador, what is the wisdom of Canada’s indigenous nations, which Governor-General Micha lle Jean mentioned in her first speech?

“A very interesting question. I must say that, oddly enough, a sizable part of the Canadian territory formally belongs to the indigenous nations today. There are a lot of disputes over land and property, especially at the vast territories with the deposits of oil and gas, particularly in the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia. As a rule, representatives of the indigenous nations tend to win lawsuits. This often results in the heavy funding of projects. Many countries can follow the suit of Canada which is trying to incorporate indigenous people into their modern-day country and is doing very much on this path. In comparison with other American countries, Canada really looks better. I have visited several feasts of various Indian tribes and understood that they have a possibility to keep up their traditions, customs, and culture. Naturally, there are problems, especially in such matters as education and incorporation into society. As a rule, Indians live separately, but they have powerful associations and instruments to protect their rights. I think that what adds charm to Canadian society is the fact that there really are indigenous nations here. I will note that last year the Conservative government of Stephen Harper took a serious and wise step by recognizing one more — Quebecois — nation in Canada.”

What is the attitude to history in Canada?

“Canada is a relatively young state. The oldest Canadian city, Quebec, marked its 400th anniversary last year. It is in fact the oldest city in North America. For us, Ukrainians, the history of Canada can be an example of how carefully one should write and treat their own history and how one can boldly admit mistakes. There were a lot of tragedies in the history of Canada, including some with the Chinese, Japanese, and Ukrainians.

“During the First World War, more than 5,000 Ukrainians were interned because they were citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the time and therefore considered allies of Great Britain’s enemy. As a result, the Ukrainians seriously suffered from sort of a political isolation for almost five years. After this, many people were afraid to reveal that they were Ukrainian and, accordingly, would change their names for American, French and Canadian ones. For example, one of the most powerful Canadian ministers of labor was Michael Starr, born Michael Starchewsky.

“Nevertheless, last year Canadians mustered historical courage to admit their mistakes with respect to the Ukrainian community in Canada and officially apologized to the Ukrainians. The government of Canada even allotted 10 million dollars for honoring the memory of the 1914—20 Ukrainian internment victims. Incidentally, the last woman who had witnessed those events died last year.

“I always remember the Holodomor and believe that democratic regimes always treat as seriously as possible such problems as, for example, the death of five to eight million people. This is not just a history which you can turn over like a book page. This should be honored, remembered and spoken of openly. This is why the parliament of Canada has recognized the Holodomor as genocide of the Ukrainian nation.”

There are a lot of critics in our country, who oppose the building of monuments and museums in honor of Holodomor victims. How does Canada tackle the problem of monuments, etc.?

“Incidentally, it is in Canada that the first monuments to Holodomor victims were built. One of these monuments is in downtown Edmonton: it is a serious reminder to future generations about this tragedy which was in fact not recognized in our country at the time. We have supported the idea of Jason Kenney, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, to erect in Ottawa a monument to the victims of totalitarianism. It is an extremely serious project which explains the attitude of Canada to such pages in history. If we look at the composition of the Canadian nation, we will see a lot of immigrants who left Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Ukraine, Russia and Poland, i.e., the countries whose population suffered from political persecutions, and found refuge in Canada. That country never forgets the horrible histories of totalitarian regimes.

“I think this is one of the factors that influence the attitude of Canada to Ukraine’s accession to NATO. Canada rather strongly supports the Ukrainian stand on NATO membership, for it regards this as a guarantee that we will never get back to the horrible totalitarian pages of history.”

Does this mean that Ottawa looks on NATO as a guarantee for irreversible democratic development of Ukraine?

“As one of the elements. We spoke about the global system of security. And Canada is very well aware of Ukraine’s role in this system. Canada is also aware of the European dimension of security because a large number of its people have European roots. So the country is looking at these problems through the eyes of its Europeans.”

But in the Old Europe itself Germany, France, the Netherlands, and a number of other countries oppose Ukraine’s NATO membership…

“I think we must understand that major policies quickly change due to the change of political views and governments. So I am not inclined to dramatize the situation. We can say that there is a certain logic by which NATO has said in no uncertain terms that Ukraine must be an alliance member. But we should put the question of when this will occur to no one else but ourselves. I am sure that the more the Ukrainians delve into their history, the more they smash the stereotypes that have come up in the past 50 years, the faster everything will be changing. We are aware that the first generation of the Ukrainians who were born after 1991 may come to power in the nearest future. This will perhaps be a new system of references, including those in politics. The truth is that our today’s political elites still come from the Soviet Union.”

Do the Canadians show any weariness about supporting Ukraine’s aspiration to join NATO and the EU, as is the case in the European Union, because of political instability in our country?

“The Canadians are very well aware of what is going on in Ukraine. But it is of paramount importance for them that this should proceed within the framework of democratic processes, the Constitution and the Ukrainian law. There is clearly a struggle for power. Yet, this is an absolute sign of a democratic regime. If you compare Ukraine and Canada, the latter has also had four snap elections in the past 10 years. The Canadians take a very easy view of snap elections. If a society develops dynamically, politicians usually lag behind this development. A civil society can outstrip even the development of a political system that may slow down, one way or another, the country’s progress. So when this kind of a situation arises, it will rather quickly bring about political changes. This occurs like an inevitable surgical intrusion into the body, and Canadians very easily endure these problems.”

But the Canadian political system remains unchanged, doesn’t it?

“I would call the Canadian political system a quite experienced democracy with vast experience of the British school and certain peculiarities of today’s Canadian life. The crucial point of the Canadian political system is the first-past-the-post election system. Politicians are tied up to their constituencies and communities. Incidentally, this clear-cut political system guarantees stability in the state. There are five political parties in Canada, including the two largest, Conservative and Liberal, which come to power one after the other. There is a bitter competition between them. Tellingly, there are only two independent members of the Canadian parliament. This means that, as a rule, people vote for the candidates they trust if they can see serious programs of these political parties.

“I felt the first political shock at a Liberal Party congress. This five-day event, attended by all kinds of political observers, experts and television personalities, heard a serious debate on the situation in the party. There were five candidates for the leadership. Voting on the first day eliminated one of the candidates. The second day saw one more candidate out: forces are regrouping, touching off a new debate and offering new arguments. The third day’s voting leaves two candidates around. And only on the next day the leader is elected. The entire Canada can see all the struggle of candidates’ ideas and views. Every interested person can make a conclusion whether or not he or she shares the views of the new party leader. Everything is done very openly.

“In my view, this is what our political elite must build in Ukraine. First of all, we need a strong party system and elections that will tie the political elite to Ukrainian rank-and-file voters.”

What other interesting things are there in the Canadian political system, which Ukrainian parliamentarians and ministers could learn?

“The experience of political struggle is quite interesting. In particular, there is an interesting formula by which parliament can discontinue its meetings. Suppose there is a political crisis and parliamentary factions are unable to agree upon the future. In this case they resort to a formula called prorogation, i.e., suspension of parliamentary proceedings for two to three months. This ‘recess’ is used to strike new political deals. Three months later parliament resumes its meetings from the very beginning — as if the reset button were pushed. The Governor-General of Canada again delivers a keynote speech on the new government’s program principles. This very interesting mechanism was successfully used six months ago, when the Conservatives, who escaped a defeat by a hairsbreadth, resorted to prorogation. This was in November, and in January they staged a comeback and preserved their positions in the government after debating on the budget.”

And how is Canada tackling the financial crisis?

“In the opinion of many experts, Canada is one of the countries that are combating the crisis rather successfully thanks to a strong banking system. The Canadian banking system has always been considered too conservative. But this turned out to be a major plus. As the speculative component was low, the government managed to keep the Canadian economy afloat, although it still suffers from being next to the world’s largest US economy whose fluctuations are affecting Canadian businesses. Canada exports energy resources (gas, oil and electric power) to the US. The daily trade turnover between Canada and the US amounts to $1.5 billion. In spite of an automobile output slump and the growing unemployment, the Canadians succeeded in taking effective anti-crisis measures and managed to use the main financial flows for creating new jobs.”

Since we have broached the subject of Canada — US relations, this raises the question of whether these relations can be regarded as a model for Ukraine and Russia.

“This is the so-called foreign-policy asymmetry. The well-known Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau said as long ago as 1969 that living with such a neighbor as the US is like sleeping beside an elephant. This witty phrase amply reveals the essence of such asymmetry. This really reflects the situation in the US—Canada relations. If we project this on the Ukrainian-Russian relations, we will see a similar relationship. Take, for example, the border problem. The United States and Canada have not yet finished negotiations on the delimitation and demarcation of their borders. Moreover, there are serious problems in Arctic Canada, a debate in underway on the North-Western passage. The Canadians consider this passage their own land, while the Americans believe it should be an international navigable territory.

“As for political relations between the US and Canada, it is evident that the two largest Canadian parties are taking different approaches to the relations with the United States. The Conservatives are often closer ideologically to the US, in contrast to the Liberals. We also have political parties that gravitate towards either Russia or the West.”

Mr. Ambassador, incidentally, you said in an interview that Leonid Kuchma once asked Canada to send here a person who could share the experience of being able to live next to a giant and not to be swallowed by it. Has Canada satisfied this request and who was this person?

(Laughs.) “Luckily, we signed an agreement on diplomatic relations in 1992, and there has been a Canadian diplomatic representation in Ukraine since then. Many Canadian ambassadors were true friends of Ukraine, who knew very well about Ukrainian problems. For example, during the Orange Revolution in 2004, Ambassador Robinson was doing his best to persuade the diplomatic corps to help hold a democratic and peaceful election. We can also say that Canada very actively supported Ukraine in its bid to join the WTO. Still powerfully works the mechanism of the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA). They have appropriated over 300 million dollars to aid Ukraine.

“The cooperation with CIDA played the key role in building democratic institutions and a market economy in Ukraine, solving social and environmental problems, reforming public administration and the judicial system, improving regional government and regional economic development, developing the private sector of the economy (with emphasis on small-scale business), reforming the agricultural sector, strengthening the monetary sector, launching and developing bilateral scientific and technological cooperation as well as cooperation in the legal sphere.

“As part of the judicial reform project, we have set up three local-level model courts which are going to study and implement Canadian experience. Canada is always ready to share its achievements and technologies. There are a sufficient number of Canadian advisors in this country. Incidentally, there is a project by which we study the experience of border delimitation and demarcation. Under some programs, the Ukrainian military study at peacekeeper training centers and learn foreign languages. The Ukrainian society really needs all these things.”

And how can you explain that very few Canadian businessmen are investing in Ukraine? What is holding them back?

“I can say that the first wave was very active. Many Canadian businessmen of Ukrainian origin came to the Ukrainian market. But I must admit that there has been a lot of negative experience. Still pending are court cases about Canadian investments in Ukraine. In spite of this, the Canadians are exploring the possibilities of investing. Despite the crisis, our trade turnover is always on the rise: it has in fact doubled in comparison with the last year. The beginning of this year also saw a burgeoning, almost threefold, growth of Ukrainian exports. Canada is becoming sort of an alternative market for Ukrainian goods, especially metal. Besides, some oil and gas companies are coming to Ukraine. For example, Shelton is now trying to work on the Black Sea shelf. Intensive cooperation is expected in nuclear power generation. Many Canadian investments have been made in the farming sector. One of the hampering factors is long distances. We are drawing up an agreement that is supposed to shorten this distance — I mean the agreement between the Odesa seaport and the Canadian port of Halifax, the nearest one to Europe. I hope this will give a powerful impetus for the development of trade relations. Another serious project is in the pipeline: the establishment of a free trade area. We are to begin working on it next year.”

How do the Canadian authorities meet the cultural needs of the Ukrainian diaspora and the “new” Ukrainians?

“Canada is a country that has recognized multiculturalism. Accordingly, very much attention is being paid to the Ukrainian community. Incidentally, in the 1970s there was a question of granting Ukrainian the status of an official language. Unfortunately, this ‘fizzled’ at the time. Incidentally, many ethnic Ukrainians have reached the highest peaks in Canadian politics. Ramon Hnatyshyn, born in Bukovyna, was the first emigrant Governor-General of Canada. There have been 44 representatives of Canada’s Ukrainian community in the House of Commons and eight in the Senate of the Canadian parliament. Our great pride is the Premier of Alberta, Ed Stelmach, while Roy Romanow was the Premier of Saskatchewan until recently.

“As for the newly-arrived, there are not so many of them. Representatives of the ‘fourth wave’ of immigration are integrating into Canadian society quite easily. The older generation is trying to help the younger one. There are special centers that help one to find a job and solve the language problem.

“Incidentally, I discovered a fantastic thing: the number of Ukrainians in Canada is constantly growing. According to the 2001 and 2006 censuses, 1,071,000 and 1,209,000 people, respectively, declared their Ukrainian origin. This means it is the world’s largest Ukrainian community outside Ukraine and Russia. Interestingly, this growth was not at the expense of the newly-arrived because only about 10,000 Ukrainians came to Canada in that period. The growth was possible because the previous generation of Ukrainians reconsidered their roots and changing their attitude to Ukraine. A powerful upsurge of pro-Ukrainian sentiments occurred after the Orange Revolution. Many people began to seriously try to trace their roots in Ukraine. Our embassy receives very many requests to do a genealogical search. Canada has a lot of organizations for this purpose. Indeed, the number of Ukrainians in Canada is steeply increasing. I have a feeling that it may be a question of 1.5 million Ukrainians.”

What about language problems? Does the Canadian bilingualism, so much hyped by some political forces in Ukraine, really work?

“As an example of bilingualism, I can name the western provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, as well as Toronto, where there are bilingual — Ukrainian-English — schools. Ukrainian is the medium of instruction in these schools. In some provinces the Ukrainians managed to establish Ukrainian schools which are not Saturday or Sunday institutions but ones incorporated into the Canadian system of education.

“Now about bilingualism in Canada. Yes, the country is a bilingual state. We have the francophone Quebec. In my opinion, granting French the status of an official language did not resolve the problem of separatism. It is a far more serious problem. This is why there were attempts to secede from Canada, and there was a referendum. We should study and understand this experience. In my view, this will not be a remedy for Ukraine. Our country should take a different way which I think is quite well described in Article 10 of the Constitution, whereby Ukrainian is declared the official language, while other languages, especially Russian, have very good possibilities for development.”

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