Jerzy SZMAJDZINSKI: “I can see that Viktor Yanukovych behaves like Jaroslaw Kaczynski”

Jerzy Szmajdzinski, the deputy speaker of the Polish parliament, leader of the Left Democratic Union fraction and the same-named party, and former defense minister, does not conceal the fact that the left-wing forces in his country are not experiencing their finest hour. However, he is optimistic about the future and knows what needs to be done to improve the image of the left, which is now in the opposition. He is adamant that one cannot imagine a situation in Poland where the opposition could block parliament’s work for a whole month.

What prospects do left-wing forces have in Poland, and what is the difference between them and the party of Donald Tusk and Jaroslaw Kaczynski?

These and other questions are raised in The Day’s exclusive interview with Jerzy SZMAJDZINSKI.

THE ATMOSPHERE FOR A LEFT-WING ALTERNATIVE WILL EMERGE IN POLAND

Why is the left wing, which used to be strong, ceding its position with every election?

“The crisis of the left-wing in Poland started in 2005, when it went divided to the polls. The Union of Left Forces, which had abandoned the Left Democratic Union, won 600,000 votes, which did not give them any mandates. If we had been united, we would have won nearly a hundred mandates in parliament. The left-wing forces lost because people realized that we had moved away from our program and had not fulfilled the promises made four years earlier. But along with that, Polish left-wing forces took a strategic step and Poland joined the European Union. During the global economic crisis at the end of the four-year rule of the left forces, Poland’s GDP grew by 7 percent and there was low unemployment. But, unfortunately, Poles have decided that after our term in office, an opportunity should be given to the right- wing forces. There were a lot of sensational affairs during the left’s four-year rule. Whether they were true or not, they had a great resonance in the mass media. Our leader communicated badly with society, with people as well as with the mass media.”

Do you see any prospects for Poland’s left-wing forces?

“There are prospects. I think that people see every day that the last elections in 2007 were a kind of plebiscite. The following question was asked: who supports the idea that Jaroslaw Kaczynski and the Law and Justice Party should give up power. People decided that the Civil Platform Party headed by Donald Tusk is capable of doing this. Now we realize that people have understood that Tusk’s party is liberal and it approves decisions for the benefit of the rich, who will become even richer. This party is not resolving either social problems or sensitive ones. Tusk’s party stands on the side of the church: the Polish Catholic Church. It does not favor the state becoming independent of the church. A lot of problems are emerging because of this, like how to treat infertility or how to improve the country’s demographics. The church says that it is impossible to give birth to a child by the in vitro method. Religion is dominant everywhere. Only the left-wing forces in Poland are talking about this problem. Tusk’s party is the soft right, whereas Kaczynski’s party is the hard left. And Poland needs a third, another kind of left-wing alternative. We hope that in a few years, not one year or two, Poland will have a favorable atmosphere for a left-wing alternative. For the sake of this goal the left-wing forces should act jointly and create a strategy: a vision of Poland for the next 10 to 15 years. This should be a complex vision: a project for Poland in which all the main problems are resolved. Right now this is the most important task for the leaders of Poland’s left-wing forces.”

THE MAIN TASK IS TO CREATE A PROGRAM FOR POLAND

Whom will the Polish left-wingers follow: someone from the labor stream or other social-democratic streams? What can be closer to the Polish left-wing forces?

“The Party of European Socialists is the closest to us. We are members of this party as well as the socialist fraction in the European Parliament. In Poland the social-democratic party, the Labor Union, trade unions, and some non-governmental organizations belong to the left-wing forces.

We are creating a kind of union where the power of trade unions will increase. During the recent elections to local government bodies we were part of a coalition with the Democratic Party, which included such historical personalities as Gieremek, Onyszkiewicz, and Frasyniuk.

“We don’t know what will happen to the democrats in the future, because on the one hand, people want us to strengthen our position on the left. On the other hand, in order to have good results we should enter the center where there is room for the democrats. I don’t know how this discussion will end. The main task for us this year when there are no elections — parliamentary, presidential, or local — is to create a program for Poland, to show it, popularize it, and then we will see the way it will be accepted in the public opinion polls.”

Could you comment on the reports published in the Polish newspaper Dziennik, according to which you have two rivals for the party leadership?

(Laughing) “I haven’t read the report yet. It is a nice text. Two years ago, before the parliamentary elections, we decided we had to introduce personnel and organizational changes. I supported the involvement of young people with little experience. For more than a year Wojciech Olejniczak was the minister of the economy, and Grzegorz Napieralski was the secretary-general. And we understood that the generation that is somewhat older than 30 has a good prospect because they have a long way ahead of them to return to a coalition that will be able to rule in Poland. It was a very clever choice. In my opinion, we should be more patient and not be worried that everything is not going as fast as we want. After 1989 we experienced our biggest crisis. The disappointment in the Polish leadership was very profound. One has to be patient and work on a new concept for Poland. And young people have something that people like me lack: clear historical maps. This way will be better. I tell everyone: we have to be patient. This change would not have produced anything. It may have been somewhat different. But would it be different if we had a high level of trust? Nobody knows. There is a need to unite young people with those who have bigger historical experience.”

Does this mean that you are confident that you will continue to rule the party?

“Yes.”

How beneficial for the left forces was Kwasniewski’s return to politics?

“I can answer the following way: if there were no Kwasniewski in the recent elections, we would have gotten 10 percent. And if Kwasniewski did not have any incidents in Kyiv and Szczecin, we would have earned 16.5 percent. Finally, we won 13.5 percent. The debates between Kwasniewski and Tusk could have been better. Unfortunately, Kwasniewski did not have anything to say at the end. And Tusk said directly to the people of the Left Union and the democrats: vote for the platform because this is the only way for Kaczynski to leave. Kwasniewski should have said as follows: ‘Mr. Tusk, we have differences between us and only one question in common. Together we can show Kaczynski that his time has passed.’ If Kwasniewski had said this, our result would have been somewhat different.”

I DON’T THINK THAT SOCIALIST OPINION IS EXPERIENCING A CRISIS

Looking at the map of Europe, we can see that the socialist Royal lost the elections to the right-wing Sarkozy. Earlier in Germany right-wing parties won with a small advantage. In Great Britain the Labour Party is gradually losing support. Why have left-wing parties been losing recently to right-wing parties?

“Let’s wait for the results of the Spanish elections. I am sure that everything is moving along a sinusoid (circular function) in politics. The difference in the program points among the parties in highly democratic countries and large consumerism is small. Everything depends on how people are prepared to rule and how many genuine media scandals there are. In addition, there is only one problem in highly democratic countries: what kind of attitude to take vis-a- vis people who support same-sex marriages. The abortion problem is typical of Ireland and Poland. One could say that their parties’ programs are very similar. It is a big one in Poland, but very radical changes in people’s reactions have taken place here. Nobody has succeeded in repeating their term of office in the last 18 years: to stay in power for a second consecutive period as a result of parliamentary elections. Left-wing forces were in power in 1993-97 and in 2001-05. Poles do not give parties a possibility to stay in power for a second term. Kaczynski has ruled for two years. What will happen in the future? It is difficult to say. I don’t think that socialist and social- democratic opinion is experiencing a crisis. One could say that the demands of people who are making the choice have increased.”

WE WANT ALL THE FORCES IN UKRAINE TO BE UNANIMOUS WITH REGARD TO THE QUESTION OF STRATEGY

You recently took part in negotiations with Oleksandr Moroz. How do you assess the actions of Ukraine’s left-wing forces? You are probably aware that a former subordinate of Moroz’s is creating the Union of Left-Wing Forces.

“It is very difficult to make such an assessment according to the criteria that exist in Poland. We have completely different conditions and different experiences. But we are very pleased with Oleksandr Moroz’s position when he says that it is important for the socialists to implement territorial reform. A civic state is more powerful, and this is a very good postulate, which we can see. Poles view Ukraine not through the prism of right— or left-wing forces but through the prism of whether Ukraine will be part of the Western system of security and economy, no matter who is prime minister, Yanukovych or Tymoshenko, and what role is played by Yushchenko. We want all the forces in Ukraine to be unanimous where the question of strategy is concerned. Poland has done a lot because all the parties were united on the main strategic questions.”

Did Moroz explain why the socialists are against Ukraine’s joining NATO? Why is he against the collective system of security?

“Today we were listening to his opinion on the current situation in parliament. We talked about this earlier and about the reasons why Poland joined NATO and why it took this step. We haven’t come to an agreement at this point...” (Laughing)

During your parliamentary visit headed by Speaker Bronislaw Komorowski you met with Viktor Yanukovych. Did he explain why the work of parliament is being blocked? Can a responsible opposition impede the work of a legislative body?

“In my opinion, the opposition should not perform its duties this way. Public opinion in Poland does not understand this situation. No opposition in Poland could organize this kind of month-long blockade. Even a party like Self-Defence and its leader Lepper would not do such a thing. You can do this for half a day, but not for a month. I see that Yanukovych behaves like Kaczynski, representing the hard opposition. Tymoshenko has headed the government only for 60 days, and the opposition is already blaming her for things that it failed to do. Many negative processes started during Yanukovych’s term in office. One should not act this way. Kaczynski and his people behave this way in Poland. This is a hard opposition. I am sure that the problem is not whether Tymoshenko signed the letter applying for the NATO Membership Action Plan in a correct or incorrect way. If this had been done according to the procedure Yanukovych is talking about, he would have invented another reason. The opposition should have 226 votes in order to change a resolution. Questions that are important for Ukraine are being resolved, and he will always be against this. There is no such opposition in Poland. When decisions that are important for the Polish people are being adopted, we always vote in their favor no matter whether all the members of the ruling coalition are present. This is a ‘crazy’ position.”

THE NATIONAL MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEMS SHOULD BE NATO’S, EUROPEAN, AND EURO-ATLANTIC

If you can, could you comment on your statements in Dziennik, where you said that the declaration of Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek puts Poland in a difficult situation?

“In my opinion, there has been no communication between Poland and the Czech Republic. This is a mistake that was made by Polish diplomats in our relations with the Czechs. I think if Topolanek said this, Polish chances for a better agreement have shrunk. You can see that the partner is ready, what else do you want?”

Do you support in principle the deployment of elements of the US National Missile Defense on Polish territory?

“In principle, the Polish left- wing parties are against these plans because my colleagues cannot see any threats to Poland and say that this system defends only the US.”

What is your position as a former defence minister of Poland?

“I am in a difficult situation. When I was the minister, I spoke with the Americans about this system. I think that the heads of this project must give the Poles more information. The question of whether Poland’s security will improve or worsen must be answered. What should we do once threats emerge in order to defend ourselves? The main thing is for the NMD system not to divide NATO and the EU. Americans should secure the Russians’ neutrality concerning this question and involve them in the development of this system. In 2002 I told the Americans to conduct negotiations with the Russian Federation. And they talked to the Russians. I often stressed that Sergei Ivanov knows more about this system than me. I also said that the Americans should talk about the Missile Defence System in NATO military committees as well as on the level of the Alliance’s ambassadors. And that’s what happened. Now the time has come to approve this decision. My party is against it.”

Can the US repudiate this system if Russia helps to exert pressure on Iran so that it halts its nuclear program and does not continue developing long-range missiles?

“It’s not just about Iran. I am well versed in the international situation and am convinced that the Americans are right that in the future threats of space terrorism may emerge in the world from countries with nuclear weapons and means of delivery. It would be wrong to say that there will never be a threat of the spread of weapons of mass destruction. The problem is that this NMD system should be global and have room for the Russian Federation. If Russia is involved in this system, security will be strong. We are not against this. The Missile Defence System should be NATO’s, European, and Euro-Atlantic. Different problems may emerge in the future. If the Americans want to fund this system, which European countries, including Poland and Ukraine, cannot fund, it is better to contribute to it, but not so that this system will only protect the US.”

ON IRAQI CONTRACTS AND THE MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN

You supported the withdrawal of Polish troops from Iraq. But being present in Iraq enabled your country to obtain big contracts to supply arms to the Iraqi security forces.

“No, they were not big contracts. That was not my approach. It is impossible to think this way: we will go to Iraq and get contracts. First of all, a soldier’s blood cannot be measured with money. Second, I believe that you cannot divide security. When a country like Poland says that it is placing a stake on security, its statements should not diverge from the issue at hand. There were contracts for several hundred million dollars for the Iraqi army. But according to my government’s approach, we insisted on completing this mission by the end of 2005, because we should know when to enter and when to leave. Yevhen Marchuk knew when to enter. And he defined the time when Ukraine would complete its mission in Iraq. Such partners are respected. After entering Iraq, Poland did not say immediately how long its troops would stay in that country. I told the Americans that our personal possibilities and resources will be over.”

What about Afghanistan? Should Poles take part in this mission?

“That is a different mission. Those who approved the decision to send Polish troops to Afghanistan did a very risky thing concerning the place of deployment of our troops, their safety, and the use of weapons for their protection. Today the problem concerns how long our presence in Afghanistan will last. The question is about people, resources, and financial possibilities.”