Leigh Turner:

Great Britain has been a consistent advocate of Ukraine’s EU and NATO membership. How does London assess the reaction of the major world powers to the global financial crisis and the challenges Europe is facing in the wake of the 2008 Russo-Georgian war and the Russia-Ukraine gas row in early 2009? What is the EU doing and what can it still do to help Ukraine draw closer to the European community? These questions are raised in the interview with Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Great Britain to Ukraine Leigh Turner.

Mr. Ambassador, it is obvious that the current global financial crisis has changed the world and that many countries which were carrying the burden of responsibility are seen as embarrassed or even lost. Do you think that those leading countries understand this problem and have found the way out of this crisis?

“Well. I don’t know which country you mean when you talk about countries looked lost. But this world financial crisis has been an unprecedented event. It’s been a challenge to the entire world economy, needing new measures to combat it. One of the results of this is that, led in part by the Prime Minister of Great Britain Gordon Brown, the G-20 has been particularly active in holding a series of meetings to agree joint action which can tackle the global financial crisis. And I hope, although economists will always say that it’s too early to say, that we are now past the worst of the crisis. We have seen that growth has resumed in a number of countries, including China and the countries of the eurozone. Most recently there are signs that Britain, too, is emerging from recession.

“Britain’s economy is actually pretty strong and we have got number of areas which are powerful and competitive in world markets. I have been rather encouraged that British exports to Ukraine are rising even in the tough conditions of 2009, compared to 2008. And 2008 was better than 2007. So there is no doubt that some sectors of the British economy are doing well. That is true, too, of the service sector. A lot of what I do involves promoting British services such as education where I am delighted to say thousands of Ukrainians are happy to go to the UK to study, because they think that we can offer some of the best education in the world, both in English and in other subjects. That again is very helpful to our economy.”

But British papers say that “Britain Remains the ‘Sick Man of Europe’”?

“For the most recent full quarter of this year for which we have figures, preliminary statistics suggest that the eurozone has emerged from recession and the United Kingdom has not. But those are preliminary figures, and recent figures have shown big revisions when they become final. Quite apart from that, the latest figures for the current quarter show that Britain has probably now emerged from recession.”

NO PRINCIPLES, NO SUCCESS

Turning back to Europe, don’t you see dangerous tendencies when many politicians in Europe say that pragmatism, not principles or values, should guide relations with Russia?

“I think that in every political movement there is always a balance between principles and pragmatism. But without principles, no political party or country can succeed. For example, the United Kingdom strongly supports EU enlargement. We think it is good for Europe. We think it is good for Europe’s neighbours. And that’s why we have consistently supported giving an EU membership perspective to Ukraine. We think Ukraine is a European country, should have right to apply for membership, and should join when it has met the necessary conditions.”

By the way, what is British answer on Lavrov’s statement: “There is an understanding in London that one should find point of touch, not to set or rest against some principles”?

“I think in a case of the relationship between the United Kingdom and Russia you should really talk to our Ambassador in Moscow. But it is certainly the case that we are keen to have good workmanlike relations with Russia. We have a historic relationship with Russia, and we want to engage with them in the areas where it is in all our interests to do so. We think that’s very important. That’s why David Miliband has recently made an important visit to Moscow and has had productive meetings with Mr. Lavrov and others. At the same time, there are key principles of our relationship which we cannot let drop. In particular, there has been the unfortunate case of Mr. Litvinenko, which remains outstanding, and we continue have certain requests to Russia which have not yet been met.”

Mr. Ambassador, many Ukrainian experts think that last year Europe’s response to Russian aggression against Georgia and towards the Russian-Ukrainian gas war at beginning of this year was weak. So when can we expect the EU to react more strongly in similar cases?

“I don’t at all accept that the European reaction to either event was weak. In the case of the Russian invasion of Georgia, Europe, led at that time by the French Presidency, intervened decisively to bring about a resolution of the conflict. I think without this intervention the conflict could well have continued for longer and been even more destructive than it was. So I don’t at all agree with your hypothesis.

“When it comes to the gas conflict between Russia and Ukraine, I think, first of all, that it’s vital that both Russia and Ukraine realize that last year’s gas conflict did immense damage to the reputation of both countries. That’s a message we are keen to put across to Russia, it is a message we are keen to put across to Ukraine. It is vital that there is no further interruption of gas supply this winter. I would also say that the European Union has shown that it is ready to back up concrete actions with concrete money.

“At the meeting in March between the European Union, international financial institutions, and Ukraine, the EU brokered a deal whereby billions of euro would be made available to Ukraine, principally to reform the gas pipeline system, on condition that Ukraine would introduce a series of reforms which are clearly spelled out. The EU and the international financial institutions are ready. They want to give Ukraine this money. But to be able to do that, Ukraine has to meet the conditions. And so far it has not met them.”

Can you say which conditions Ukraine has not yet met?

“They all are important and are part of an overall package. But they include the reform of Naftohas, transparency about who is paying what and receiving what money, reforms of tariffs, and so on. The EU really wants to help, but it is not just a matter of handing over cash. There are conditions which were agreed by all parties, and which must be met in order to receive that money.”

UKRAINE NEEDS TO SHOW CONCRETE REFORMS

But anyway many people in Ukraine think that in relation to Ukraine, the EU is interested only in the supply of Russian gas and doesn’t take into account the difficulties Ukraine has in building its own state. I have seen an article in the Financial Times which directly said: Stability of gas supply to Europe would be the one most important factor which would define relation towards Ukraine. Mr. Ambassador, don’t you think that the EU should not only make demands but should do more to help Ukraine follow a democratic course of development and, finally, to integrate into the EU?

“I think it is important to understand that the EU is already closely engaged in a whole host of actions to help Ukraine. For example, the EU is supplying technical assistance worth 120 million euros every year. And Ukraine can bid for funding which is designed to help institutions in Ukraine to integrate with Europe. There is a macrofinancial assistance package, which is available, worth 500 million euro, again with conditionality. In all these areas the EU is keen to be helpful.

“One thing which is important to bear in mind is that the EU is made up of 27 sovereign countries. It’s rather a brilliant organization, because it manages to combine these different countries’ interests and come out with a combined view. It is sometimes very tough when you are going to meetings between these countries all of whom have different policies and somehow you have to agree a combined position. But it works. And at the moment, if I am frank, there are certain countries such as the United Kingdom and some of new member states who are keen to see Ukraine join the European Union as soon as possible. There are also some countries which remain to be convinced that Ukraine is doing enough to show that it is serious about reforming itself so as to join EU. In order to win the argument, Ukraine has to demonstrate concrete actions to reform itself across fields such as governance, corruption, and judicial reform.

“I think people in Ukraine understand that a huge amount has been achieved since 1991. Indeed, none of us should forget how much has been achieved here — even if you look at the last five years, it is a different country today from in 2004. At the same time, much more needs to be done. And all the time I have been here in Ukraine, since June 2008, unfortunately, we have seen a deadlock between different parts of the Ukrainian authorities, which, if I am frank, has been an obstacle to demonstrating that Ukraine is able to reform itself quickly in order to draw closer to EU. We hope that in the future Ukraine can develop effective governance, so it can drive forward the reforms which the country needs to make itself ready for EU membership.”

Mr. Ambassador, you have seen all leading candidates for the Ukrainian presidency. Is there someone between them who has the characteristics of a leader capable of carrying out the reforms Ukraine needs?

“Sometimes when somebody asks me a question like that, I feel like surprising them by saying, actually, yes, I support this or that candidate.”

But I am not asking you which candidate you support but rather about the characteristics needed for a future Ukrainian president…

“To create policies that everybody in Ukraine supports is the challenge for all presidential candidates. And I think one must always remember that Ukraine in its present form has been a country for only 18 years. There has been a constant process of economic and political reform, and the development and creation of a national identity, which has moved ahead during all of that time. The next president of Ukraine, whoever it is who wins the election in January, or in February if it goes to second round, will have to create policies which enjoy support across the country and which benefit the whole country.

“One of the things I like most about Ukraine is that it is a country with regional differences. I had previously a posting in Moscow from 1992–95. Although I greatly enjoyed my time in Russia, I remember being a bit disappointed when I got on an aeroplane and flew for 11 hours and arrived on the island of Sakhalin, in the Russian Far East, to find the architecture and people more or less the same as in Moscow. In Ukraine, I have been able to travel to different parts of the country: for example, to Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk, Odesa, Sevastopol, Simferopol, Lviv, and Ternopil. People in these different areas are quite different. Sometimes they speak different languages. I mention some of these trips in my blog at http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/roller/turnerenglish/. They are all proudly Ukrainian; but differences between them make Ukraine an exciting country.

“I come from a small country called the United Kingdom. Between different parts of the United Kingdom there are huge differences in people’s accents and their outlooks and in some cases language. So it makes me feel rather at home being in Ukraine.”