“One needs pragmatism to handle geopolitical challenges”

The former president of Colombia, Cesar Gaviria Trujillo (1990-94), is widely known in Latin America as a negotiator in conflict situations, and an advocate of democracy and regional integration, as well as a human rights defender. He was elected Secretary General of the Organization of American States (OAS) in 1994. In 1999, he was reelected to this post.

Recently, he was invited by the Foundation for Effective Governance to take part in the international conference, “What Is Freedom of Speech?”, which took place on December 2. So, what is the Colombian perspective on freedom of speech in Ukraine? How does Bogota see the WikiLeaks publications, and what stops government from winning the war against drugs?

These and other questions were discussed in The Day’s exclusive interview with Colombia’s ex-president Cesar Gaviria Trujillo, who is versed in Ukraine’s problems and knows from his own political experience how to help nations develop institutions ensuring the implementation of human rights and freedom of speech.

Mr. Trujillo, how would you evaluate the situation with freedom of speech in Ukraine? How is our country different from Colombia in this respect?

(Laughing.) “I do not think that the situation with freedom of speech in Latin America is comparable with that in Central and Eastern European countries. In my opinion, Ukraine is doing quite well in this respect. I cannot see anything dramatic here. Of course, there are a lot of complaints on the part of non-governmental organizations. Our situation in Colombia is much more complicated. However, what matters more is the existence of democratic institutions which ensure the implementation of freedom of speech. First of all, I mean free elections.

“Sometimes there is no balance of power in a country, no transparency, or some other things. But freedom of speech is absolutely necessary to have a democratic society, even if it is not perfect. However, people have the right to protest, have different opinions, exchange ideas, or criticize the government. Without this, a country cannot have real democracy. It concerns not only the rights of individuals, but also the rights of society as a whole.”

Don’t you think there should be uniform standards for freedom of speech and democracy, as some countries will try to “sell” their own versions of democracy – just like the creation of democratic socialism was once proclaimed a goal in certain parts of the world?

“After World War II the world community passed the Declaration of Human Rights. And this was a collective decision, which was approved by Ukraine, among others. I believe in standards. But on the other hand, one needs institutions and opportunities for the implementation of standards. No one from the outside can do it for you. It is you who must provide it, in your own way. It has to be in the heads of the people, of government officials. Otherwise we cannot speak of securing these standards.”

What is your opinion on WikiLeaks? Are they a manifestation of freedom of speech, or should they refrain from publication for security reasons? The US Department of State continues to demand punishment for the owner of the site?

(Laughing.) “This is a complicated case. I can say that at a certain point in time, the US Supreme Court passed a verdict on a similar cause. It was about the New York Times, the Boston Globe, and the Washington Post who published Pentagon documents concerning the war in Vietnam. The newspapers won this case against the government. Back then, there were no secrets in those documents which might have compromised the EU.

“The WikiLeaks case is similar to that one. The US is in a tough situation, but there are no military secrets involved. I don’t think there is information there that might worry the US. The court may pass a decision to the effect that there were some violations of security. But there have been numerous cases in the US when a decision was taken in favor of the media.”

But the White House and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton are indignant because of these publications...

“Yes, certainly. In many cases, the government has numerous arguments to the effect that this is a threat to national security. And they might be right. But I can only emphasize that in a similar case the Supreme Court ruled that the newspapers had not violated anything. It also resembles the situation with the US flag: if someone decides to burn it, it is a manifestation of their opinion, and no one has the right to put this person in jail.

“Freedom of expression can go as far as you can imagine. I am not saying that you have to do it, I’m just noting that lots of similar acts were not liable to punishment, as they were considered freedom of expression.”

Do WikiLeaks publications serve the interests of the public, the Colombian one in particular?

“I have no doubt that materials concerning our country will be printed in Colombia. The Colombian media will print anything they get access to. An important thing has to be mentioned: there can be no interference from the government when it comes to freedom of speech. You can be sued for what you have written, but there can be no censorship. On the other hand, a journalist must have a sense of responsibility for what is printed in a newspaper.”

Speaking of freedom of speech, international media agrees that Colombia is a dangerous place for journalists...

“So it is. And there are various methods to make encroachements upon the freedom of speech. Drug dealers kill Colombian journalists. And as a genuine war is virtually going on in our country, in some cases journalists become victims of security services or guerrillas.”

What prevents the government from putting an end to the drug dealers’ criminal activities?

“This is a huge problem. I have thought a lot about the war on drug dealing, which has been waged for nearly 40 years. I have understood that it is the policy that is wrong. You cannot throw a lot of people in prison, and for a long time. This will not help. If the US were able somehow to reduce the consumption of drugs, then we would not have to imprison so many people. So, there is only one conclusion: the US has to change its policy. I think the American public is ready for it.”

Yet your country receives aid from the US, in order to fight insurgents and drug dealers.

“Yes. We rank third, after Israel and Egypt, in the amount of the aid we get from the US. This aid is very useful in terms of ensuring security. We have learned a lot from Americans, and now we have an extensive intelligence body, transport, and well-trained people in the sphere of fighting drug trafficking. It is widely acknowledged that Colombia is much safer now. We were able to put an end to the violence which spread over the country in the early 1990s. Mexico is the real problem in this respect.”

How can one then interpret newspaper headlines saying that Colombia is moving towards Venezuela, and away from the US?

“No, this is not true. Venezuela is our neighbor, and it is crucial for trade. Our country has full rights to establish good relations with Venezuela. I think it would be wrong to have bad relations with that country. Colombia is not changing its international policy. You cannot always be at war with your neighbors because of the interests of the US. We have our own ones. And I don’t think there are problems in that area which can grow into an armed conflict.”

Alberte Barrantes, the Ambassador of Colombia to Poland, said in his interview to The Day that for your country, presence in Ukraine was important. When will a Colombian Embassy appear in Kyiv?

“I understand that the governments of both countries are interested in the expansion of cooperation. It is desirable that permanent ambassadors represent the interests of both parties. I hope this will happen soon. This was also the wish expressed by the Ambassador of Ukraine to Peru, who issued me a visa to your country.”

Speaking of the parties’ mutual interest: how do you think Bogota sees the development of Ukraine-Colombia relations?

“It is very difficult to build trade between Ukraine and Colombia. We are geographically very far away from each other. Yet today, our relations are more than just trade. If you desire to be part of the international community, and an active player at that, you have to maintain relations with important countries. It does not mean that Ukraine is unimportant for us. Last year, we witnessed a great battle for Ukraine, because Ukraine is very important for the international community.”

Who do you think fought for Ukraine?

(Laughing.) “I meant that Ukraine is geopolitically important for Russia, and Moscow isn’t going to easily accept the fact that Kyiv is moving westwards and wants to get NATO membership. This isn’t going to be an easy process. Therefore, this question has to be dealt with very delicately. In my opinion, the main challenge for the president of Ukraine is to make the split of the country impossible.”

By the way, speaking of civilizational choice — our country aspires to move westwards, what is Colombia’s civilizational choice?

“Our ambition is to create a free trade zone with the US. Most Latin American countries are involved in such a zone. We are part of this project, and do not feel any inconvenience in this respect. As for Ukraine, I am convinced that you will find your way.”