A Party that Questions NATO or EU Membership Has No Chance to Get into the Hungarian Parliament
“Hungary is usually portrayed as an example of a successful transformation. What caused this success?”
“It is, first of all, history. Hungary was dubbed the merriest barracks of the socialist camp. We had always differed from others in our policies and our vision of economic reform, especially in the eighties, when private entrepreneurs were given freedom. People just learned to bear responsibility for their actions and be owners. The political principles of the Hungarian leadership were always different from those of other socialist countries as far as democracy and civic freedoms were concerned. We also set our reforms in motion long before others did. We have managed to convince our partners that Hungary has reached the point of no return. It is perhaps for this reason that Hungary has already received $24 billion in foreign investment and begun to develop new sectors such as the automobile industry. We have never looked on foreign investors as any kind of threat to national security: the result is that they feel free in our country. Besides, Hungarian banks meet Western standards.
“Of course, there was a shock. But we went through it without any major social upheavals. Everybody knew there would be results ten years later. Naturally, there were people who became impoverished and went broke. Not everybody could be winners from the transformations, but everybody saw a promising future.”
“Your country has an experience of divorce from an empire. This is a burning issue for Ukraine. How do you think past problems can be translated into present-day gains?”
“We had two divorces. I do not know much about the Austro-Hungarian divorce settlement, but I know the experience of breaking away from the Soviet empire. That was a peaceful and very calm divorce. We even saw off the Soviet troops at a decent level. Even before the USSR collapsed, Hungary began to establish new ties with the future independent states. For example, on December 6, 1991, our prime minister flew to Moscow to sign a fundamental treaty with Mikhail Gorbachev. We knew even then that it would never come into force. An hour later the Hungarian premier met Boris Yeltsin and signed a similar treaty with Russia. In the evening the head of the Hungarian government was already in Kyiv, where he signed the same kind of a treaty with Leonid Kravchuk. Of course, the Soviet side protested: the Soviet ambassador in Budapest would announce every day that Ukraine and Russia had no right to do so because the Soviet Union still existed. But we were aware that history had just overstepped Soviet diplomacy. I think everybody but Mr. Gorbachev saw that the Soviet Union was giving way to new states. We initiated disbanding of the Warsaw Pact. Hungary opened its border for East German refugees to go to the West. Most probably, our divorce was successful because it was peaceful.”
“What kind of relationship does your country maintain with other countries of the region also striving to enter the EU?”
“Of course, there are some problems in this respect. What we have is healthy competition. Having almost the same history in the past century and analogous problems of transition from socialism to a market economy, we try to learn from each other. This is being done, above all, in such a cooperation format as the Visegrad Four of Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary. We are trying to establish cooperation conducive to our European Union membership. Slovenia and Croatia take pleasure in cooperating with the Visegrad Four, for which Ukraine is also striving. Of course, this is not about expanding the Visegrad Four.
“The Visegrad states are now mapping out a very effective project in terms of their relations with the EU and Ukraine. It is the idea of cooperation in demarcating the outside boundary of the EU which, after admitting Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary, will have a 764-km border with Ukraine. We must demarcate this border in such a way that the same principles and standards rule on both sides of it. Some people say this will restore the Iron Curtain, which we vehemently deny. Wouldn’t it be better to be partners and invite Ukraine to cooperate? We want to have the kind of a border we have with Austria. This idea is going soon to be put forward as a political initiative. The European Union welcomes this also.”
“Are there political forces in Hungary that oppose the country’s admission to the European Union?”
“The parliamentary parties have reached a consensus about Hungarian membership in the EU. There can be different opinions, when it comes to details. For example, should we allow foreigners to buy land when we become part of the EU? There are, of course, some acute problems, like environmental protection: it requires heavy investment, which we will fail to make before admission. We must undoubtedly ask for a deferment. On the other hand, as soon as we enter the EU, we will be fully prepared to observe the Schengen regulations.
“The migration of Hungarian labor will also present a problem when we join the EU. Under EU regulations, Hungarians can be free to settle at any EU country. But the EU asks us to wait for five to seven years. We say, look, the Hungarians are not Poles, you won’t find them in the markets of Greece, Turkey and the rest of Europe. They stay home. Not all Hungarians are fluent in English, German, French, or Italian. So there will be no torrential flow of Hungarian labor into the EU countries. We are aware that EU membership is the result of compromise and that it is impossible to win in all areas. One must hold negotiations in a professional way. If we considered that the admission of Hungary to the EU would infringe in any way the interests of the Hungarians and tell on our sovereignty, we would not be trying to join. We hope to conclude our ongoing talks on EU membership by the end of next year. Then we will have a real opportunity to join the EU on January 1, 2004, although there are reports about different dates, e.g., mid-2004 and 2005. But the main thing is that our admission looks increasingly realistic.
There will be a referendum, and I think the population will opt for EU membership. The reason is precisely this: our people see that the EU states are prosperous and have high living standards; in the course of development, these countries have erased borders to enable their citizens to move freely. The Hungarians really cherish these values.”
“In other words, a party that takes the liberty of questioning NATO or EU membership has no chance in Hungary?”
“Absolutely. It would even be silly to raise this problem.”
“To what extent is Hungarian society prepared to inevitably delegate some of its sovereignty to the EU as soon as it joins?”
“This is not going to raise any public outcry. The people will not be concerned about this as soon as they begin to freely move across Europe without a passport, as soon as EU membership brings their wages and salaries up to European standards, and more funds become accessible to Hungary. Our country will stand a chance to receive tremendous money for various projects, such as highway construction, environmental protection, etc. Our task is to learn how to put this money to good use.”
“Sooner or later, Hungary will have to introduce visa requirements for Ukrainians. Do you think our border can be demarcated in a way that will not make the impression of a new Iron Curtain?”
“We will not introduce visas until we have been admitted to the EU. But we must prepare ourselves for this even now. Nobody in Ukraine asks why Great Britain requires visas of Ukrainian nationals. But as soon as one of the former allies from Central Europe imposes a visa treatment, this immediately triggers the question of why. This approach is a bit unfair. The Schengen system is aimed at having a normal controllable border regime, not at keeping Ukrainians out. We want our border with Ukraine to be similar to the one with Austria. Already under construction is a highway and a checkpoint that meets all European regulations, with one to six or even seven lines instead of the existing one or, at most, two. Those who have a visa and customs clearance will be able to cross the border in ten minutes. All the existing checkpoints will be updated. We also intend to expand our network of consulates. We have already begun to reinforce our Consulate General in Uzhhorod and plan to open a consulate in Berehove. We already have the experience of visa relations with Russia. Moscow also feared that the introduction of visas by Hungary would frighten away tourists and jeopardize relations. But now that visas have been imposed we see that nothing of the kind has happened. The same applies to Ukraine. Moreover, the tourists who have been visiting us up to now don’t seem to be those who find it a problem to pay $30- 40 for a visa. As to the Transcarpathian population, they will, of course, no longer have the opportunity to smuggle cheap gasoline.”
“The common perception is
that Hungary is refraining from introducing visas not in the least because there are about 200,000 ethnic Hungarians in Ukraine. Budapest tries to take care of Hungarians who live abroad, to which end your country has passed this year a law on foreign Hungarians. Rumania and Slovakia were critical of it, while Ukraine took a moderate stand. Is there a danger that this law, if implemented, will touch off a mass migration of ethnic Hungarians from Ukraine?”
“Ukraine is taking an entirely reasonable stand: it sees no problems in the implementation of this law. We have had consultations with the Ukrainian side, we do not intend to take any steps in contravention of Ukrainian laws or interests. The law triggered a mixed response among our neighbors. No serious problems arose where ethnic minority rights had been observed even earlier (in Ukraine, Croatia, Slovenia, and Yugoslavia). There are problems in Romania and Slovakia because we and they have different interpretations of some clauses of this law. We say we are ready, under this law, to finance from the Hungarian budget some privileges for the Hungarians residing in the neighboring countries and speaking Hungarian, or if the authorities of the host country consider this person a Hungarian. A special commission checks all the relevant documents, and then these people are issued a special ID in Hungary. This law does not rob anybody of anything: on the contrary, it gives them things. The law gives them an opportunity to get employment in Hungary for three months irrespective of the Hungarian market requirements. Tens of thousands of Hungarians from Ukraine still work illegally in Hungary. We consider this a humiliating situation that needs to be clarified. The truth is that the law only applies to those who do not intend to move to Hungary permanently.”
“When Prime Minister Anatoly Kinakh, was visiting Budapest last August, he suggested that Hungary participate in the Odesa-Brody project. Your premier Victor Orban promised to study this. Are there any results?”
“We are so far waiting for concrete proposals. We would like to know what kind of oil will be running in this pipeline, at what price, and whether it will be financially sound. Then we will be ready to consider our participation. If calculations prove that this is an economically sound project, I see no reason why Hungary should stand aside. But we have not yet seen these calculations.”
“What is the image of Ukraine and Ukrainians in today’s Hungary?”
“Ukraine is our largest neighbor, larger than all our other neighbors combined. The Hungarian- Ukrainian border is the border between NATO and the post-Soviet theater. Tomorrow it will be the EU border. Ukraine is our only eastern gate to a powerful infrastructure (pipelines for natural gas and oil, a highway being built). We will never quit this region no matter what political or military alliance Hungary might join. Our goal is that the European values represented by NATO, the EU, and shared by Hungary will be accepted by our neighbors as soon and to the greatest possible extent. We consider ourselves a bridge for the proliferation of these ideas. We consider Ukraine as a neighbor whose foreign policy we highly esteem.
“Nonetheless, unfortunately, the common perception in Hungary is that the whole Russian-speaking Mafia is either Russian or Ukrainian. In other words, the people still view you to some extent as Mafiosi.”
“What should be done to make Ukraine attractive not only as a neighbor but also as a partner? What sectors could be developing more dynamically?”
“I think this is above all tourism. I have recently been to Transcarpathia, where I spoke to Governor Moskal. He told me there is a place in the Carpathians, Veretske, where our ancestors crossed the mountains in 896 on the way to what is now Hungary. We have nurtured for many years an idea to put up a monument there at our own expense. However, there are certain political forces in the region who call this a manifestation of Hungarian irredentism because the border of Greater Hungary once ran across this place. But nobody challenges the borders of today. We are told that if we put up the monument it would be blown up the next day. I answer that this, of course, could happen, but this is the way the Taliban, not Europeans, do things.
“Governor Moskal said when he went there he saw just one stone of the never-finished monument and five buses with Hungarian tourists. ‘Why not build a cafeteria or a hotel here?’ he asked. And why not, after all? And if we set up downhill skiing facilities in the Carpathians, then why should our citizens go to Switzerland, Italy, or Slovakia? We must develop human relationships. We must do something in the field of culture: it is wrong that we hold no days of culture or movie festivals.
“On November 17, a monument to King Andras the First and his Ukrainian wife, Queen Anastasiya, was unveiled in Hungary near Lake Balaton. Yes, we must remember our historical traditions.
“In our trade and economic relations, we emphasize the development of ties between the border regions and not only because of the ethnic Hungarian enclave. Hungary is an importer, not an exporter, of capital. Our investments in Ukraine, mainly in Transcarpathia, come to $50 million. Whoever is investing in Hungary’s frontier regions today will become a EU investor tomorrow, as well as take advantage of the CIS market. We want to convince ourselves and our EU partners that these border regions are destined either to prosper together or just scrape by together. Now the Hungarian and Ukrainian sides are drawing up a special concept to improve the economic situation in this region. It is unrealistic to expect the European Union to pay.
“Flood control is another serious problem which nobody else can solve. We will have to free up a lot of money and only then turn to other countries of the Tisza River basin, i.e., Slovakia, Romania, and Yugoslavia. In any case, we will have to bear the brunt.
“Or take the Trieste-Kyiv highway, the fifth all-European corridor. The highway’s Hungarian segment, now being built, will reach the Ukrainian border in five or six years. But not a single meter has been built from Chop to Kyiv. Our partners claim it has not yet been decided at what precise place on the border the two segments of the highway must meet. Although this is important indeed, the road still has to be built. You can build it from Kyiv or in the vicinity of Lviv. Where there is a highway there is brisk investment activity. It is hard to go to Europe without good roads.”
