says Director of NATO Information and Documentation Center in Ukraine Michel DURAY

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Anatoly Zlenko, meeting with NATO Secretary General Lord Robertson, informed him about the NSDC meeting and its resolution concerning the prospects of Ukrainian-NATO relations. Mr. Zlenko also conveyed President Leonid Kuchma’s personal message which, according to the ministry press service, confirms Ukraine’s intention to work out and coordinate a new strategy of relations with the North Atlantic alliance, aimed at eventually achieving full membership. The document is to be formally presented at the Ukraine-NATO summit in Kyiv on July 9. “This move is regarded as a logical sequel to the Ukrainian course of Euro- Atlantic integration in the context of the existing special partnership with NATO,” reads Mr. Kuchma’s message. Anatoly Zlenko and George Robertson were reported to have agreed on the commencement shortly of intensive consultations. There is no information about what Lord Robertson had to say on the subject. The new director of the NATO Information and Documentation Center admits that the NSDC Secretary’s statement is “very important.”

The Day: We believe that Ukraine is at a turning point, that the process underway was activated by the September 11 terrorist attack, and that the formation of the NATO-Russia Council is a part of the process. How does this serve to lessen the distrust between the parties, and what prospects are there for Ukraine?

Duray: The declaration establishing the council was signed in Rome. It is an improvement in our relations with Russia well to be expected, although these relationships developed fruitfully after signing the Fundamental Act. Indeed, it must have resulted from what happened September 11, yet it is not the only reason, as Russian-NATO rapprochement had started earlier.

As for Ukrainian prospects, I think there is no direct link between the NATO-Ukrainian and NATO-Russian relationships. These are different processes, yet they serve to enhance security within the Euro- Atlantic Treaty area. From what I can gather, Ukraine believes that setting up the NATO-Russia Council is very important and very useful for Euro-Atlantic security, and you don’t think that the council could damage Ukrainian-NATO relations.

It should be made perfectly clear that the council does not mean Russian membership; Russia shows no such intent. The council makes possible cooperation in certain very important spheres such as combating terrorism, this being the greatest threat in our world. And it allows us to make joint decisions.

The Day: The NSDC decision to embark on a process ending in Ukraine’s accession to the NATO-based security system has not as yet been officially commented upon by the NATO leadership or by any NATO countries. Why? Is it because the decision came very much as a surprise or because it is being carefully studied?

Duray: We made no official response because we had no official information at the time. (At the time of the interview the official message had not been delivered to the NATO headquarters yet – The Day) Was it a surprise? I can say that it was a logical statement. If memory doesn’t play me false, there has been much published on the possibility of NATO membership in Ukraine over the past four months. There have been meetings. For example, the NATO and Ukrainian foreign ministers met in Reykjavik and the communiquО read that Ukraine would deepen the dialogue on Euro- Atlantic integration; this must have added to the current decision. Officially, however, I can say nothing at the moment, because the issue has not been officially discussed.

The Day: Does this mean that the North Atlantic alliance was not prepared for such turn of events?

Duray: I would like to stress that NATO’s open door policy remains the same. Ukraine says it wants to be a member. This is an important development, of course, but the matter should be addressed to NATO. I can’t comment on the issue any further. We are aware of the situation, we read the press. The issue will probably be studied in detail for the next couple of weeks. As you know, we agreed in Reykjavik that we would study the possibilities of deepening NATO-Ukrainian relations, and that a package of proposals would be ready for the Prague summit. This process continues effectively. As I see it, NATO and Ukraine are working to carry out the tasks set by the foreign ministers in Reykjavik.

As for the NSDC declaration, I would describe it as an internal Ukrainian affair for the time being, although it is important for everybody.

The Day: The Reykjavik communiquО indicates a desire to raise NATO-Ukrainian relations to a new level. How does NATO see this new level? Consultations as before or perhaps something else, like participating in planning and making decisions on some issues?

Duray: You understand that the Reykjavik meeting took place a short while ago and making a decision takes time. We are studying various options for our proposals. I can’t comment on this now, although I would like to stress that there is the Special Partnership Charter signed five years ago. The North Atlantic Council will mark its anniversary by visiting Kyiv, July 9- 10. I think that the charter continues to play a very important role. If you read the charter carefully, you must know that it contains Ukraine’s general guidelines for Euro-Atlantic integration. They put forth numerous approaches and outline directions not only in the military sphere, which is extremely important, but also in other spheres. The document also mentions consultations and cooperation. If we want to discuss the results of five years of this cooperation, this is wonderful. There are hundreds of NATO-Ukrainian events, and I think that we are all very satisfied by the level of our cooperation.

Of course, the situation changes and so does European security, meaning that we can make our cooperation even better. We must not forget about the charter which is a very useful document.

The Day: Indeed, but the charter was signed five years ago, and the situation has changed since then; a lot of things could not have been foreseen at the time. Will the new circumstances call for signing a new document between NATO and Ukraine?

Duray: I think the process is underway and it is too early to comment of what might come to pass. There is an active process of NATO-Ukrainian consultations. We will probably discuss it during the NATO Council meeting in June.

The Day: Is it possible to assume that the NATO states have achieved consensus on relations with Ukraine? Or are there still differences to be settled?

Duray: Yes, we have reached consensus on the need to deepen our dialogue and that we may have to add new elements to our current cooperation. I also mean the possibility of deepening the existing elements in terms of quality. As far as I know, the ministers in Reykjavik agreed to deepen consultations in the political, economic, and military spheres.

The Day: In other words, just deepening consultations for the time being?

Duray: We have in mind the possibility of deepening relationships.

The Day: What level of relationship would best serve the interests of the North Atlantic alliance and Euro-Atlantic security as a whole? Ukraine’s special partnership and consultations, or a level at which this country would be somehow or other involved in the overall system?.

Duray: The charter also touches on the spheres of such consultations, spheres of specific cooperation. Ukraine is already involved in the security arrangements in the Balkans; its troops [peacekeepers] operate quite actively and effectively. After September 11, Ukraine has helped NATO countries involved in the Afghan operations by opening its air space and allowing passage of military cargo planes. This means that Ukraine is already playing a role in upholding European security. We have specific acts here. There are many examples of our taking an interest in Ukrainian experiences in overcoming difficulties in various spheres, including the economy. This could be quite useful for other countries in the region. Ukraine plays a very important role within the framework of Euro-Atlantic cooperation; your country is a very reliable partner.

The Day: Is it possible to predict the conditions on which the NATO countries will vote for Ukraine’s inclusion in the Membership Action Plan?

Duray: There is a certain procedure to be observed, you know. First, there must be a membership application. We haven’t received it. This means that it is very difficult to comment on the issue. Second, there is what we called an intensified dialogue, in the course of which NATO and the aspiring countries study membership aspects. Then there is the Membership Action Plan. A decision at every stage has to be made at the highest level and every NATO member state give its individual consent. Therefore, commenting on this would be premature.

However, I wish to stress again that the declaration was an important one.

The Day: Theoretically, what could be in the way of that intensified dialogue? What problems should be solved before starting on it?

Duray: I think that our cooperation shows a good quality even now; we are talking about deeper cooperation and new ideas. But once again, these ideas are being considered, so discussing any such aspects would be premature.

It is a long process and we prefer to think not twice but a dozen times before making a decision. There is another important aspect: NATO transformation. At the Prague summit we will present what we call a New NATO. Of course, all this takes a lot of thought.

The Day: How do you see the future of military-technological cooperation?

Duray: We often hear this question, and we always reply that buying weapons is the prerogative of every member country. From what I know, the Czech Republic has just purchased three Russian An-70 aircraft, obviously because they think it is of good quality. Other NATO countries buy Ukrainian weapons systems. Of course, this market is getting smaller, as reforms are underway to reduce the level of manpower and materiel and every country discusses its defenses from the economic standpoint.

In fact, NATO deals with the development of standards, rather than arms systems.

The Day: Does such cooperation imply a special program?

Duray: Ukraine and NATO cooperate in terms of the military reform. A military reform task force was set up and the program was adopted by the foreign and defense ministers. There are 80 priorities, including the adjustment of Ukrainian military standards.

We consider work on the military reform one of our greatest attainments, for this work is in the economic and military domains. It is an adjustment of the standards, structure, and tactics of the armed forces. The Ukrainian peacekeeping forces in the Balkans operate fully in keeping with the NATO standard.

The Day: Will there be further specialization of every participant in the collective security system, including Ukraine?

Duray: The quintessence of any organization involved with security, thus being able to utilize the experience of its members and avoid additional expenses, is in the development of its own defenses. It’s best to live in one big home than in separate kingdoms, and to develop one’s own security. If all the European states had to develop their security systems, fearing one another, the result would be a nightmare and huge spending. The armed forces of every country have their own priorities; we are trying to change our structure so we can combat new risks. If one party turns out better than the others in some respect or another, others will benefit from the experience.

The Day: Would you personally prefer a partner with deepened cooperation or an ally?

Duray: The alliance must be considered in terms of quality, how each member makes use of what each member does to contribute. For example, I am sure that there are countries that are not NATO members, but which play an important role in upholding European security, benefiting from the alliance and having to pay less.