Thinks Oleksandr Rudenko-Desniak, Chairman of the Association of Ukrainians in Russia
“Mr. Rudenko-Desniak, you have presented us the pilot issue of Ukrayinsky ohliad to be published in Moscow. Could you tell us more details about it as well as about the understanding of Ukrainians problems in Russia as a whole?”
“I developed the idea of this project long ago during the First World Forum of Ukrainians, when Leonid Kravchuk was president. Addressing the forum, I said the eastern diaspora could become a source of information about what our state is doing and the way it is developing. Mr. Kravchuk spoke well of this idea. Five years later, speaking at the Second World Forum of Ukrainians, I also pressed the idea of informational coverage abroad. I do not want to take my previous two speeches and read them again at the third such forum, because very little has changed. One of the greatest secrets over the ten years of Ukrainian statehood is Ukraine’s policy toward its eastern diaspora, an absolutely cryptic problem for me. Yet, I am still sure there must be an alternative source of information about Ukraine in Russia. It should be an unbiased publication expressing different points of view; it should not print only positive information. The magazine I edit will appear in two languages. It is a common practice of diaspora mass media to print their information in the language of the country of publication and in the mother tongue. The publication will be dealing with three main issues: the life of Ukraine, the eastern, and the western diasporas.”
“Mr. Rudenko-Desniak, you pronounce the word diaspora so easily. Meanwhile, ethnic Russians in Ukraine often feel hurt when called a diaspora.”
“It can be painful, of course. But I personally do not think the words diaspora or ethnic minority are offensive. They are commonly accepted throughout the world. There is the European Framework Convention which defines in juridical terms an ethnic minority as a certain ethnic community in the minority on the territory of another country. This means nothing offensive. Still, I think polemics about whether it is good or bad to be an ethnic minority stem from a normal inferiority complex.”
“And do you personally feel you are part of the myth about the khokhols?”
“Not me, because I’ve never been a khokhol. Incidentally, you’ve raised a very interesting problem. As a whole, it is the problem of human existence in a foreign-language environment. If you don’t want to be called God knows what, you must work as good as or even better than the native residents, and know the language as good as or even better than they. Then it will occur to nobody to call you khokhol or katsap (ethnic epithets for Ukrainians and Russians respectively — Ed.). Each man is treated by the way he conducts himself. The greatest problem is the feeling of equality, when you feel you are equal with, neither superior nor inferior to, a certain other nationality. But it takes more than one generation to develop this feeling. We must admit that we have lived in a world with all kinds of gradations and degrees: one was better because he belonged to the Party nomenklatura, another because he belonged to a certain people. A human being should feel he is equal as an individual.”
“Do you think Ukrainian domestic scandals have affected the attitude toward Ukrainians in Russia?”
“Undoubtedly. The crisis has done tremendous damage to Ukraine. Firstly, this means loss of image. We’ve got a lot of professional patriots sitting all the time on their porch and waiting for the whole world to come bowing to them only because we are so wise and outstanding and our culture is not a thousand but, say, 1500 years old. But another one would sit like this and then say 2500. And still another will say 3000. But only the one who says this knows it. Emergence in the outer informational world is a huge problem for Ukraine because the state and individual exist only as information. If there is no information about you, you don’t exist. This does not depend on your specifics, on what you have done. And the weakened positions of Ukraine inside and outside the country bring about a situation such that the states it is in close contacts with are gaining an a priori advantage in the international dialogue.”
“An improved image of Ukraine has been the subject of talk for quite a long time, especially now that the state is under violent information pressure. One of the main image-making mechanisms is the establishment of information sources abroad. Is this enough?”
“The basis thing is, of course, the economic situation. There is no denying this is an ABC. The idea of a state is shaped after information about the real living standards of its citizens comes out. Thus when, for example, Ukrainians go to Russia after a fast buck, it is one situation. If Russians were coming to Ukraine for the same, the situation would be quite different. Speaking about mass consciousness, it is absolutely impossible to ignore this. In this case, information projects are of great importance. In my opinion, the Russian government took a wise step, earmarking over 50 million rubles to support the Russian-speaking population and above all mass media within the CIS. As a whole, Russia is working out a well-financed and well-organized state sponsored information program to improve the country’s image in the eyes of foreign partners. All countries work to promote their media image. So do the Americans. Still, America seems to have already filled the whole world with its jeans and chewing-gum. The United States is drawing up huge information programs which promote daily the image of the American way of life. If the wise Americans invest in such programs, it means they are needed. But a state as young as Ukraine should make ten times as large contributions. Reputation has to be won. So far, Ukraine looks helpless in this respect. Objective information about us in the world is not such a frequent thing. A few years ago I talked to a radio personality, an old friend of mine, who was saying pompously: look, the Russian media, covering Ukrainian life, are first of all pursuing Russian interests! But why on earth should the Russian media take care of Ukrainian interests?”
“Mr. Rudenko-Desniak, has Moscow changed its official attitude toward Kyiv since Vladimir Putin was elected president?”
“Russia’s official statements about Ukraine have remained essentially the same. Nobody has repealed the Comprehensive Ukrainian-Russian Treaty. Meanwhile, Russia really is showing an intensified national patriotic trend in politics. I don’t know if this might be connected with the election of Mr. Putin as president. Maybe it stems from some more serious objective processes. How deep does it go? To what extent do these processes affect the minds of those who are now 20, 25, 30? I have seen people of this age who are absolutely indifferent to such problems. But, speaking of Russian processes in general, we must say there is a normal post-imperial consciousness. It could not have been otherwise. But, on the other hand, we can say these sentiments only arise when it is clear that the time of empire has passed forever, and this lights post-imperial flashbacks. There is also the idea of fraternity. But it is very difficult to understand what this fraternity means. In my opinion, a normal system of Ukrainian-Russian relations, with due account of each other’s interests, would do both countries good. I am saying this absolutely sincerely, in this case as a Russian citizen. I always emphasize that the solution of the nationalities question in Russia and due consideration for ethnic minorities is a problem of survival for the Russian state.”
“Very recently, Ukraine and Russia exchanged, so to speak, a fire of diplomatic notes. Moscow diplomats complained about insufficient observance of the rights of Russians in Ukraine, while Kyiv tried to prove that the rights of the Ukrainian community in Russia were being trampled upon still harder. In reply, the Russian side said there was no need in opening Ukrainian schools or media. Do these claims have any basis?”
“When I was very young, I once went to the Caucasus and was happy to be the guest of an Ajarian peasant. He invited me to the table at which no women were sitting. I asked the host why there were no women. He cast a puzzled and tense glance at me. Then he said they did not want to. The same with the Ukrainians in Russia. The problem of the Ukrainian community in Russia is much more acute than that of the Russians in Ukraine. And the point is not only in that there are Russian schools, libraries, and newspapers in Ukraine. The problem is that the Ukrainian authorities, for all their shortcomings, recognize the existence of the Russian question in Ukraine. This is not true of Russia’s federal authorities. And this has created a rather interesting situation: we have regions where the Ukrainian community cooperates well with the Russian authorities, but there is no well-coordinated program on the national level. Yes, the lyceum of Moscow Linguistic University has opened a Ukrainian eighth grade. Yes, there is a Ukrainian folk choir in Moscow. Also in Moscow, there is a Ukrainian historical club which holds annual conferences and publishes its proceedings. But these are slow steps in comparison with the regions. For instance, Bashkortostan and Tiumen oblast have already formed a system of Ukrainian education. Surgut beams radio and television programs for the Ukrainians. Russia has a law on national cultural autonomy that sets out all these points (including the media and education) for ethnic minorities, but this law should be fulfilled. And the fulfillment should not depend on the goodwill of one local bureaucrat or another.”
“What tendencies exist in Russian-Ukrainian relations as a whole? What are the prospects of their development?”
“This depends, above all, on the position of Ukraine. Will it manage to get out of its present conflict-ridden situation in a democratic way? If it succeeds in establishing a dialogue, this will accordingly strengthen its position. Should Ukraine continues to bog down in its own scandals, it will see its positions weakened. As to the prospects of relations between Ukraine and Russia, I recently spoke to Mr. Biloblotsky, Ukraine’s ambassador in Russia. He is quite optimistic. Finally, bilateral declarations and about 200 Ukrainian-Russian agreements have gradually begun to be worked in both states’ interests. On the other hand, Ukraine’s problems have weakened our state in the eyes of Russia. This view also has the right to exist.”
