Vasil GRIVNA: “It Is Easier to Divide Two Countries Than Fifteen”

The Ambassador of Slovakia to Ukraine, Vasil Grivna, does not think that the new gas pipeline to be laid across Poland and Slovakia following the agreement between Russia and the West should compensate for the gas being supplied to the West across Ukraine, although Slovakia does not oppose the construction of this pipeline. Ambassador Grivna does not believe the imposition of a visa regime has jeopardized relations between the two countries. On the contrary, he is glad that that trade is on the rise and Ukrainians continue to visit Slovak health resorts. And his words that Czechoslovakia split more rationally than the USSR did should be heeded by many.

“How would you comment on Slovakia’s current attitude toward the construction of a gas pipeline bypassing Ukraine?”

“I can refer to the visit of Prime Minister Viktor Yushchenko. Incidentally, that was the first official visit of a Ukrainian prime minister to Slovakia since Slovakia and Ukraine became independent. This is also a somewhat abnormal situation, when the first official visit only took place in the ninth year of independence. On the other hand, this can also show that there are no problems or unsettled issues between Ukraine and Slovakia.

“Prime Minister Yushchenko, broke protocol at the meeting with the foreign minister, began to show him some key points on the map. The same also occurred during the meeting with the president of Slovakia. It seems to me the Slovak side now has a clearer picture of these issues because Mr. Yushchenko convinced us that the existing pipelines running across Ukraine and Poland are not being used to capacity, that there is no economic sense in building an additional branch, and that if a question is being raised about building additional capacity, this can only be politically motivated. We have reiterated our stand that we are neither customers nor consumers of this gas. Should the German and Russian sides agree to build additional capacity, we would like this pipeline to run across the territory of Slovakia. And, as the Ukrainian premier pointed out, this is not a question of bilateral relations; this is a question to those Western consortiums that are making a deal with Gazprom. The territory of Slovakia accounts for almost 80% of exports passing across the territory of Ukraine to the West; we have six railroad lines. And we consider the bypass gas pipeline not as a replacement for the one running from Ukraine but as an additional one.”

“In the course of this visit, a deal seems to have been made to discuss easing the visa regime.”

“Yes, a deal was made. I will say frankly that Slovakia has never expected the decision on abandoning the visa-free exchange agreement to cause such a sensitive reaction in Ukraine. We opted for this decision on the same day when the Czech Republic did so, in fact under strong pressure from the latter. However, Ukraine gained the impression that Slovakia had denounced the agreement in a worse way than the Czechs did. But we struck a deal with the Ukrainian side about visa-free travel for diplomatic passport bearers, which the Czech Republic failed to do; we immediately opened our consulate general in Uzhhorod for the Transcarpathian region, which, again, the Czechs have not done. Our visas cost half what Czech ones do. In October, we held consular department level consultations which identified a list of the categories of individuals eligible for a free or a half price visa. The prime ministers agreed in turn to set up a work group, which will submit to them proposals within four to six weeks about easing the visa treatment. Many of these refer to war veterans and the next of relatives living across the border. Nor shall we demand a visa for persons under fifteen. As to visas for cultural and sports exchanges, it is suggested they will be subject to a 50% discount.”

“And it is precisely now that the Tatra Mountains begin the holiday season, so they might draw fewer Ukrainian tourists?”

“I don’t doubt that Ukrainian tourists will come to our country for the holidays, but we can only come to a conclusion when we see the number of visa applications from travel companies. Statistics say even now we issue twice as many visas as the Czech Republic does, with applications touching an all- time high last week. So I hope there will be tourists if there is snow; otherwise they will go to Austria. There is no snow so far. There always is snow in the mountains on January 6, Orthodox Christmas, while Catholic Christmas is often deprived of snow. This is a historical fact.”

“You mentioned Czech pressure.”

“Under conditions such that 300,000 Slovaks live in the Czech Republic and a host of students study there, we could not afford to impose a visa regime on it, although the Czech Republic was following a quite tough line. The point is that Ukrainian tourists did break passport regulations on it or our territory. They often leave their country as tourists and then illegally look for a job. We have noticed the tourist boom fizzles out in the early winter because all the construction work is over. I say openly that we are not interested in this kind of tourism. Let us be frank. And there are several hundred thousand people like this in the Czech Republic. So we were also afraid that these people would rush to us if the Czechs imposed a visa regime. And we also have quite a high level of unemployment.”

“Is it true that the introduction of visas has adversely affected economic relations?”

“We cannot say this unequivocally. This has negatively affected the cross-border regions because now there are fewer marketplaces, flea markets, etc., and the people who traded there have seen their earnings reduced. And while, before visas were introduced, they would smuggle in, for example, cigarettes and then buy something on the money they made and take it somewhere, now this commodity exchange has dwindled. Yet, we can note a 45% trade rise this year, while Slovak exports have gone up by 29%. The trade balance has tipped more toward Ukraine. We can also note that after visas had been imposed our entrepreneurs lost the flexibility they had when there was no need for visas. To supply something, Slovak entrepreneurs will have to crouch over contracts, travel more, and react off the cuff, so in this situation visas could become a kind of psychological barrier. There is no antagonism or enmity between the Slovak and Ukrainian sides at the level of rank- and-file people. Earlier, we also vied for a Security Council seat, but this did not worsen our relations. Ukraine and Slovakia have a rather complex relationship, because about ten thousand Slovaks live in Transcarpathia oblast and about fourteen thousand people who consider themselves Ukrainians plus another seventeen thousand of those who call themselves Ruthenians live in eastern Slovakia. They are not settlers, they are the local population who speak a dialect close to the Ukrainian language and are Greek Catholic or Orthodox by faith. Incidentally, one interesting detail is that the Ukrainian and Ruthenian populations adhere to the Julian calendar, while the Slovaks use the Gregorian. In Transcarpathia, almost all, no matter whether Ukrainians or Hungarians, have relatives in Slovakia. We don’t want a Korea-type situation, when relatives from North and South Koreas saw each other after almost a fifty year break. There is a social problem here: in a village lives an old man who is no longer able to cultivate his field, so his nephews come to help him from a nearby, but Ukrainian, village. So how can we solve this problem now?”

“The relations between our countries are, however, marred by the problem with the Kryvy Rih Ore Enrichment Combine. Is there any solution in sight?”

“We understand it was a Soviet project, so the Ukrainian side and we are looking for the ways to solve this problem. In this case, Ukraine has assumed the obligations and powers of the Soviet Union. If this had not happened, the works could end up as part of certain big package of Soviet liabilities and debts. I am aware that now Ukraine absolutely does not need this works. Ukrainian specialists now want to set some production lines in motion. But to process metals Ukraine is quite satisfied with its older but not so sophisticated plants. So Ukraine should make a choice: either it finishes construction of the Kryvy Rih works and closes the old ones or modifies and modernizes its existing facilities. This is a very complex issue.”

“Why do you think the destinies of our countries differ so much after disintegration? What stands in the way of our countries developing in a similar way?”

“First is size: the population of Ukraine is fifty million and that of Slovakia five million. Secondly, the national economic complex of the Soviet Union was built under a bit different pattern than that of Czechoslovakia. In addition, it is easier to divide two countries than fifteen. I would say we employed a more rational process of division. The federation law adopted in 1968 set out quite clearly the rights and duties of the Czech and Slovak Republics. In parliament, one republic could thwart decisions of the other: in other words, there were mechanisms to take into account the opinion of the other side. Moreover, we had six months to consider the division, while in your case nobody knew after the Bela Vezha agreement whether or not Mikhail Gorbachev would send troops, whether or not he would have Boris Yeltsin, Leonid Kravchuk, and Stanislav Shushkevich arrested. For if history had decreed otherwise, i.e., if Mr. Gorbachev had been the Russian president and Yeltsin the Soviet one, you would be still part of the Soviet Union.

“We had elections, both in Slovakia and the Czech Republic, in which a landslide victory was won by the parties unable to form a united government. They formed a government aiming to divide Czechoslovakia. The Czechoslovak parliament passed a law on division. We formed a customs union and began to solve the debt problem: for example, foreign-based property was to be divided at a ratio of two to one. So our process came off on the basis of a parliamentary vote.”

“What are your personal impressions of Ukraine?”

“I know Ukraine very well. I studied here, so I have many acquaintances, classmates and teachers included. What I like still more is the fact that if a Slovak who has never been to Kyiv before comes here, he is pleasantly surprised. The Ukrainian economy is developing quite well, although there are problems, of course. I wish you had better roads. I wish Ukraine would again receive the flow of Slovak tourists: after the opening of western borders, Slovaks began to go to Spain and Croatia. We have seen some of the Carpathian resorts: they are very beautiful but have an old and absolutely underdeveloped infrastructure.”