Aleksander KWASNIEWSKI: Heroes of the second stage of transformation will be intellectuals, not market operators

As mentioned earlier in this issue, Polish President Aleksander KWASNIEWSKI granted an interview to Editor-in-Chief of The Day Larysa IVSHYNA on the eve of his visit to Dnipropetrovsk.

“Mr. President, do you expect Polish investors to come to Ukraine?”

“I think they need to. I have even discussed this issue today (May 30 — Ed.) with Professor Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is now in Warsaw. We talked about what the West should do for Ukraine. In my opinion, investment is the best way to get not only your traditional neighbors but also European and American companies involved in Ukrainian privatization. Polish companies also. For otherwise whatever we politicians do will remain nothing but empty words.”

“Speaking of the traditional neighbors... I have had the pleasure of talking to Adam Michnik (a living legend of new Poland, the popular editor of Gazeta Wyborcza — Ed.) today. I asked him, ‘Do you think the pipeline bypassing Ukraine, about which Russian Premier Kasianov recently visited Warsaw, is an economic or a political project?’ And even such an experienced person became lost in thought... Of course, he then answered, but still this pause speaks volumes. So I think you, Mr. President, is the only person who can answer this question.”

“Of course, I will give a very political answer because what I am dealing with here is not technology or economics. In my opinion, we should not speak about gas and oil pipelines in exclusively political terms in the early twenty-first century. They should be built for everybody’s benefit. There is no doubt that both we and Europe need Russian gas, that many routes traverse Ukraine and Belarus, and that everything should be properly organized. I think gas transit is first of all an economic question. But, of course, the political aspect is also present. I believe our approach was absolutely correct: to discuss this with Ukraine and the European Union in order to agree upon the way to do it. For what is very important today is not only a pipeline that is being laid somewhere and possesses a certain value but also participation in a financial group. One must seek here a good concept working in favor of Poland, the European Union, Ukraine, and Russia. For there is no reason whatever why we should think about the pipe in a confrontational sense. Why? What happened? This is the position we presented to Russia’s prime minister. I know that your president and prime minister have discussed this with the Russians. What I expect now is a concrete and responsible approach.”

“You said you had spoken today with Prof. Brzezinski. Did you feel he is determined to look in a somewhat new way on all that has happened lately in this country?”

“Mr. Brzezinski knows Ukraine very well. As far as I remember, his son worked in your country for a long time. So he shows an absolutely positive approach. He is aware of Ukraine’s role and importance in today’s world. But, of course, what Professor Brzezinski understands does not always translate into US experience and direct actions. A different approach also exists there. But we must work. What is important? I do not want to and cannot interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. You are a country that has established workable democratic institutions, but I would give Ukraine this concise and clear piece of advice: you should not waste time. The most dangerous thing for Ukraine is losing momentum. A crisis, a debate, one government, another government, and nothing happens. There are no dynamics, development, or solution of urgent problems.

“We Poles know, and you Ukrainians should know that we still have a long time before we can join the most highly developed countries. We will only be able to go faster if we do every day twice as much as they do in the West. But thus far, we are doing 50%, if not 10%, of what they are, and, of course, the gap is only widening. Hence my principal piece of advice, in terms of politics, social life, and the economy alike: you must think in every dimension about how to march forward if you want to have good projects and see your problems solved.

“I am very well aware of the complexity of Ukraine’s problems. They are incomparable with those of your region’s other countries. But still, at this time moving ahead is the only way to go.”

“What is your vision of Polish-Ukrainian relations, taking into account that Poland has already become a NATO member and is going to join the European Union, while Ukraine is now quite a long way from these goals. In addition, the neighbor we mentioned opposes NATO’s eastward expansion.”

“As to NATO, I think the main thing is to understand that today’s NATO is a concrete concept of European security. There is no alternative. One can discuss this and hold seminars, but one must understand that security means not only a theoretical approach but also money, people, and equipment. Secondly, after Yalta, Potsdam, and the collapse of the Soviet Union, we have approached a new situation whereby every country, even the smallest (Ukraine and Poland are, of course, not so small), can solve its problems in a sovereign way. And we cannot tell, say, Monaco or Liechtenstein that we oppose what they have decided to do. If it does not run counter to accepted values, does not threaten our security, nobody can say anything. Want to be neutral? You’re welcome! Join NATO? Be my guest! No NATO? No NATO indeed! Thirdly, the years of our cooperation with NATO have shown very clearly that, thanks to NATO enlargement, Europe has become calmer and more stable than it was before. For we are creating a special quality of security relations through joint and concerted efforts. Of paramount importance is the historical point: we have an alliance with the Germans for the first time in a thousand years.

“I am very glad that NATO and Ukraine, as well as NATO and Russia, maintain normal relations. This should be continued, for we should feel safe, and even if some problems accumulate, we can solve them without hiding it. Ukraine will decide where it wants to be and what kind of future it wants to have. But, to my mind, we, as well as all other NATO member states, should maintain a very close cooperation with Ukraine. And we have already shown concrete examples. You know, President Kuchma and I visited Kosovo and met Polish and Ukrainian peacekeeping soldiers and officers. We were so pleased to see them doing their duty in good mutual contact without any problems. So my conclusion is that: NATO should be developed. And NATO should accept new countries, all those wishing to join. Secondly, NATO-Ukraine and NATO- Russia relations should receive a very serious impetus. And we must do our best that at some time in the future — I can’t say precisely how many years it will take — we will be part of a new European defense and security architecture together with Ukraine and Russia. I am often asked if I see some kind of place in NATO for Russia. My answer is that I do. It is, of course, too early to speak about this today. We are still unprepared. But in the future, I am absolutely sure we will combat organized crime, terrorism, and all kinds of dangers together. We will be part of a unitary political and military system. Of course, the question will not be solved today, tomorrow, or even in ten years. But it will be, remember my words.”

“A very interesting forecast indeed.”

“And a bold one.”

“But it is very good to speak some promising ideas, for they influence people’s mindset and shape the future.”

“Besides, you are speaking to a president who has been in office for six years. And the next five years is my last term. What is very important for me now is not to be embarrassed, not confine myself to the language of diplomacy, but say openly what I think should be done. Everything depends on us. It’s our job.”

“What is no less important, if I may note, is your wholesome assessment of the problem, in spite of your sixth year in office. Just to dwell further on the joint Ukrainian-Polish battalion: Ukraine and Poland have spoken out in favor of joint participation in the formation of a European Union rapid deployment force. Do you think it feasible to form a joint European brigade?”

“Of course, I do. In my opinion, all we have done is a good and positive experience to be further developed. What we have achieved is that the Kosovo Eurobattalion has become not only a political symbol. It would be too little if we were only seeing each other in Poland and Ukraine, talking, singing songs, and all that. In fact, our peacekeepers have spent six months together in Kosovo, a very difficult region, accomplishing a difficult mission. And we have every chance to reinforce our joint result on a new level.”

“What concrete benefits has Poland reaped from being a NATO member?”

“Guarantees of security. This is number one. Number two is that we now take part in drafting important decisions. You know, I first had the personal feeling of being a member of a well-established political club during the Washington summit. There were nineteen heads of state: the US president, German chancellor, and so on... And this means a lot. We discuss what should be done in the Balkans and the way we should address major world problems. You feel you are in a kind of special club. This is no laughing matter, it is great responsibility.”

“This is a new adulthood for your country.”

“Yes, because we understand that we are making decisions not only for ourselves but also assuming responsibility for everything going on around us, at least in the Euro-Atlantic area.

“One more point is that in terms of the economy, NATO membership means very serious guarantees, which attract many investors. Some people don’t even know where Poland or Ukraine, for that matter, is. Ours is a difficult region. Nobody knows what is here, whether or not bears walk the streets, some think we’ve got a ten month frosty winter. They do not expect to see a normal country, normal relations, here. So many of them regard NATO membership as a positive signal: you can trust this country because it belongs to a club that guarantees peace, security, and normal cooperation, which means acceptance of values we also share. And let me emphasize again this is a special historic moment for us, for we are for the first time in a real alliance with Western Europe and Germany in particular. You know that Germany is a country we have fought many times in the last century, so this is a new type of relationship for us.”

“Borders without visas. Many Ukrainians are worried that the border, for the development and improvement of which both sides have spent so much money and effort, is now facing a new problem: the Ukrainian-Polish border could soon become the European Union’s border. What is the attitude of President Kwasniewski toward this?”

“My attitude is clear: we will be in no hurry. It is important for me that our border should be open to all things positive. Of course, we cannot return to the false slogan that our border is a border of friendship because that friendship was not the same if looked at from different sides. But today we must make our borders friendly and as open as possible for individuals, businesspeople, politicians, students, regions, cities, and non-governmental organizations. Plus, the border should be a place of effective combat against terrorism, crime, and drugs. Can this be organized? I think so. To this end, the border needs improvement, as far as effective countermeasures to negative phenomena are concerned. My political approach is that European Union membership should not mean turning our back on our eastern neighbors. This would be a big mistake not only for us but also for Europe. I always say this. I will be discussing this with your president in Italy on June 8-9. We need the understanding of our Western counterparts. Of course, the Iron Curtain has been torn down, and now we should not draw even a new blind between us. We must be absolutely open to all kinds of relations and contacts with our neighbors. This is going to be my policy to the end of my presidency.”

“What is the secret of Poland’s receiving tens of billions in investments? My own country, it pains me to say, has seen only about three billion dollars of investment over the same period.”

“Poland has received 49 billion dollars. This is a great deal, of course, but I wish it had been still more. I think Warsaw already reflects this. Why did it happen? I think because Poland managed to use its chance. We launched a very radical economic reform. We created stable conditions and laws. Nobody is afraid here that the next day after we change government some new people will come and start persecuting those who set up their own businesses. I think our main secret is Poland’s stability and predictability. As governments come and go, Poland continues its democratic march. This means there are no problems, you can come and invest your money. One more important point to our advantage, as I see it, is that after fifty years of so-called socialism, Poland was in a better position than was Ukraine after seventy years of the Soviet Union and Soviet power. We had more people prepared to take part in a dialogue and public activity, we were more elastic. Our approach was to immediately make the country attractive for partners and investors. This does not mean, of course, there were no mistakes and everything was 100% successful. But, analyzing the past twelve years, I must say that investments were a very important factor in changing the Polish economy. We created not only new companies but also new jobs, new technologies, as well as better conditions for export. All the largest companies, such as Fiat, General Motors, and Philips, now work in Poland. What I mean is these are not only companies dealing in consumer goods but also those making high-tech items. I think we must go further in this direction and repeat in a way the example of Ireland and Portugal. For those countries achieved progress and accelerated economic growth owing to foreign investment in the field of high technologies. We have all that is needed for this, i.e., young and well-educated people. Please use this. This is capital.”

“What has further aggravated our problems is this year’s political scandal which I think you know very well about. Unfortunately, it has affected this country’s image. Your Weimar Triangle partners were surprised at the fall of the Yushchenko government. Were you surprised also? And more... What would be your attitude if your opponents requested Mr. Schroeder to broker a domestic compromise?”

“This is a thorny question. I’ll tel l you this: I wouldn’t like to be a commentator or, the more so, an arbiter in these very complicated internal affairs of Ukraine. I am your friend, and I don’t think anybody doubts this as well as the fact that I am your advocate. I speak out for Ukraine wherever possible and do all I can to persuade many of my foreign counterparts to act in favor of Ukraine. For me, this event was very difficult and dramatic. I gained the impression this was a political crisis — this is precisely the right word — and no adequate measures and steps were taken to rapidly extricate yourselves from this crisis. Everything dragged out, the policies pursued can be expressed with the formula of one step forward, three steps back. I have already said in this interview that we should not waste time, our goal is to march forward faster than others. Instead, we lost months, and nobody understood what exactly had happened. I’m sure even you don’t understand. It is also unfathomable for me: How could a person who worked for the president run away from the country with some tapes? This is terrible. This looks like a political provocation, a major provocation. Who organized it and how? I don’t know. But, from the very beginning, my idea and my advice was to take up the political initiative. First, explain everything that has happened. Second, use all juridical levers to get out of this crisis. Third, carry out some political measures. And one more, very effective, way that we successfully tried out in Poland: conduct a dialogue with the opposition. I’ll tell you frankly: if a similar situation emerged in Poland, I would not be surprised if Gerhard Schroeder, Jacques Chirac, George Bush, or anybody else met the president, the prime minister, and the opposition. This is not a question of trust. It’s necessary to understand better what’s happening. This is also an example for you. Look, we can discuss things: so can you. The worst decision is not to want to talk. It’s like in a family. Can you show me at least one family where things improved after people refused to clarify the situation by their joint effort? Quarrels happen everywhere: in Ukraine, Poland, and the rest of the world. But it is still better when family members speak to each other even after a deep crisis.”

“There can be no such interesting answers without such thorny questions.”

“This is also true.”

“The killing of a compatriot of ours by a Polish policeman triggered a very strong emotional response in Ukraine. I know, Mr. President, that you wrote a letter to the family, I know your attitude, I know that the authorities tried to downplay this painful reaction to the death of Serhiy Kudria. But this struck the following sensitive chord in Ukraine: we now have to seek jobs abroad, and have the Poles forgotten so quickly that they also went through difficult times? Why do they sometimes scorn, I would say, on those who are forced to earn a living illegally? What can the president say about this?”

“I wrote in that letter to Mr. Kudria’s relatives that this was a tragedy and that I was terribly sorry about it. I expressed my heartfelt condolences. We are, of course, still looking into this matter and are sure to find the final truth. I told our ministers to help the family. That our policeman will be punished is beyond any doubt. But the main thing is that the family should receive aid. The most horrible thing is that a boy was born who will never know his father. And, of course, I told minister Siwiec that we should support the family both morally and materially. All this will be done. As to the second point, I, of course, understand this, I remember very well the situation my fellow Poles were in ten or twenty years ago. And, of course, when I see a bitter struggle going on against those who work illegally, I can feel uneasy in a purely human way. However, the law is the law, and I say as president: there should be no violations. Nevertheless, I know the causes of what is happening, but I cannot say to bend the rules and do nothing. Of course, we must adopt laws and create a relationship that can help us both. We must provide a legal opportunity to earn wages. There is demand. What should be done to make the border friendly, what should be done to enable people to earn a living? How can we organize this in a way that would neutralize any feeling of alienation? This is the main question. But I will never tell you that it is allowed to break the law in Poland. For one of my objectives is to see all the laws obeyed. If a law is bad, it should be changed. But still, the law is the law.”

“You have achieved very much in your first presidential term. Poland has changed significantly. Your ambitious strategic plans are already being fulfilled, and we, Ukrainians, are very happy for our remarkable neighbors. But in all probability you, Mr. President, have a goal you would like to achieve during your second term. What kind of goal is it?”

“The number one goal is the European Union. We must become a EU member before my tenure expires. The second is economic development. The third is demography. Young people present one of the most complicated problems we are facing. In fifteen years, in 2015, Poland will have 8 million of those who have turned 18. This is, so to speak, a Sweden. And this means we must organize good schools, universities, jobs, all kinds of facilities, apartments, and so on. The fourth — long-term and the most difficult in terms of strategy — task may take not five but as many as twenty years to accomplish. I think this is also a good piece of advice to Ukraine: to find what our specialty in the world can be, what can make us competitive in the finest sense of the word. We cannot be just a market. We must also produce and sell things and be specialists. I don’t know about the best option for Ukraine, but we already see niches and sectors where you could be absolutely competitive. This is important. We must, of course, utilize talented people, research, technology, and expertise. We must apply our minds to this because nobody tackled this in the first period of transformation. The intellectuals were quietly doing something without being noticed. The new businessmen, the market operators topped the heap: they were the heroes of that first period. But the first period is giving way to the second period of transformation and modernization where intellect, talented people, good organization of research, technological, and production institutions will be the main assets.”

“When the Poles hear this program, they will say: we want Mr. Kwasniewski to be our president for a third time.”

“No, everybody can feel safe in this connection: whatever I fail to do I will continue to try to do and not only as president.”

“Thank you for the interview.”