Ukraine and Poland Should Observe the Dates that Unite Us

The Day continues the debate on the root and essence of the 1943-1944 interethnic conflict in Volyn which claimed tens of thousands of Ukrainian and Polish lives. In any case, one should neither mix the historical components of this confrontation with the political aspects of today nor seek unilateral repentance from the other. Only the perception and unconditional acceptance of the fact that both the Polish and the Ukrainian sides are responsible for this bloodshed under the cruelest conditions of World War II will contribute to unbiased coverage of the events of sixty years ago. Participating in the debate are prominent Volyn-born contemporary politicians: first President of Ukraine Leonid KRAVCHUK; People’s Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola ZHULYNSKY and Serhiy SHEVCHUK; Lieutenant General Oleksandr SKIPALSKY; and former Ambassador of Ukraine to Poland Dmytro PAVLYCHKO.

Larysa IVSHYNA: “I would like to ask you, General Skipalsky, a question. Ukrainians must distance themselves one way or another from the status of defendant. But, of course, we must also make some real steps to stop being one. Sometimes ‘advocates’ succumb to the temptation of taking advantage of the defendant’s plight. But perhaps Ukrainians should also ask themselves the question of whether they can help Poland? For example, to counter a strong pressure of the Polish Right that could harm both Poland and Ukraine. We must also be the active subject of politics.”

THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE UKRAINE STRONG

Oleksandr SKIPALSKY: “I always feel the state at my back. For there are government agencies supposed to do their job, defending the national interests of Ukraine and Ukrainians, which our first president emphasized. I was born in Volyn, ten kilometers away from the River Buh, at a farmstead, later part of the village of Vyzhhiv, Liuboml district. The village was burnt down by Polish Armia Krajowa (AK) units that crossed the Buh. So I have my own scores to settle with the Poles — suffice it to say I was born in a dugout. In 1943 the AK killed my grandmother, burnt down the houses of my two grandfathers, and murdered my uncle. They did so, although none of my close kinsmen were in OUN or UPA. Then what should I personally apologize for? For being left without a house, a grandmother, or even without three houses (the two of my grandfathers and one of my father)? For the fact that our farmstead was ruined for no apparent reason? From the perspective of today’s international relations, I agree we should seek a balanced way out. We should shake hands and apologize for the bloodshed of sixty years ago in the interests of the future. I just can’t understand any different answer or different action: the memory of my relatives will never let me. Another thing — the graves of innocent victims will always remind me of this. As to the future geopolitical changes, I want to put forward one more argument, one more approach. We must never forget that there is a shadowy force of influence in international relations, also known the world over as secret services. When my respected colleagues were discussing the problem of Polish-German, Ukrainian-Polish, and Ukrainian-Russian relations, I kept recalling the following. Why do you think should Warsaw’s Russian Embassy officials drive across the Peremyлsl land to HrubieszЧw and say, ‘Look, this is the land Stalin and Russia gave you. The Ukrainians never would have’?” In my view, there is also a third force involved in this, one that wants to create tension. Undoubtedly, there are countries that would not like to see a strong Ukraine. You know very well that the Ukrainian leadership is favoring today the idea of a single economic space, that there are powerful forces in this country, which claim that Ukraine will be part of the Union tomorrow. You know that a Russian geopolitical institute predicts that Ukraine will be partitioned into two states along the Dnipro. Reasonable politicians indeed, the Poles are trying to stake their claims, just in case, on the territory of Volyn, saying they ‘have a historic right to these lands because they suffered there so much’.”

L. I.: “There are our graves there...”

O. S.: “Yes, there are our graves there. The so-called anniversary observation or Ukraine’s unilateral apology would have dire consequences. For the Polish view is as follows, ‘If Ukraine is apologizing so readily, it will just as readily cede Volyn; it will surrender Donbas to Russia and Bukovyna to Romania.’ The authorities concerned, especially the National Security and Defense Council, should work with subtlety and delicacy on this problem...”

L. I.: “Gen. Skipalsky, here is a question to you and all those present. President Kwasniewski is under pressure from the Right. It is quite possible that he would behave differently but for this pressure. But who must pressure our politicians? I am not sure they also need this kind of support, these heated voices that say: do as you please, but we won’t let you take any unilateral steps in this direction. Who should do this?”

O. S.: “One must differentiate President Kwasniewski of Poland from many of our politicians. In spite of any private, personal or material interests, Kwasniewski always remains a Pole. He will go the whole nine yards todo defend Polish interests. And he will be right to do so, for this is the golden rule for any true politician. We should help our leaders understand what the national interest is. I hope our meeting will to some extent help them understand this. We must learn. It is our tragedy that Ukraine is a young state and our governmental mechanism malfunctions. Let me give you some examples with concrete names. A person named Yaroslav Tsaruk collects archival materials about the Volyn tragedy in Volodymyr-Volyn district (I was elected to parliament from that constituency). When I was a deputy, I bought — with my own money — and presented him with a tape recorder so he could go around and record eyewitness reports. As a Verkhovna Rada deputy, I turned to the Cabinet of Ministers and local Council Chairman Klymchuk for assistance in publishing the materials collected. Only when the Poles stepped on the gas did we start to move a little (we really need the stick sometimes). Let Mr. Klymchuk explain today why he in fact turned a blind eye to this. Why couldn’t he find 1000 hryvnias to get that book published in 1995? And nobody could!”

L. I.: “You know, Gen. Skipalsky, I think it is a good idea to name those who have done something like this. There is a real chance to tell truth at last about those events. After all, we must be aware of the political space we are in. But if our president, the executive branch, and parliamentary committee heads need educational and humanitarian assistance, this assistance should be rendered immediately, so they act in true conscience. For example, Mr. Pavlychko recalled some people of the Marko Bezruchko caliber along with Marshal Budenny, but the alumni of Soviet schools see no equation here. Ukraine must now come together on the basis of the Volyn events. For this is a unification formula for all Ukraine. It is not just the question of Volyn alone. This also applies to the Donbas, Crimea, Bukovyna... We should all spread knowledge about these events via party-based and non-governmental organizations.”

O. S.: “I am 100% certain that the so-called observation of the sixtieth anniversary of the Volyn events is part of a strategic, geopolitical, special operation aimed at isolating Ukraine. All the components of this operation are being controlled, supervised, and hyped to a large extent. If we look at each component and then at the whole thing, we will see who stands to gain from this. We do have professionals — not just scholarly consultants — capable of defending our national interests. We must finally become Ukrainians.”

POLISH CHAUVINISTS DO HARM NOT ONLY TO UKRAINE BUT ALSO TO POLAND

Dmytro PAVLYCHKO: “You know only too well which forces are interested in stirring up enmity between us and Poles. So we must exercise utmost caution today. The Ukrainians should never offer unilateral apologies, but it is important to suggest that the Poles take a Christian step as they did with respect to the Germans. You mentioned the Russians. Russian diplomats kept saying to me at every reception, ‘How can a khokhol (Ukrainian — Ed.) possibly be together with a liakh (Pole — Ed.)? It’s impossible!’ And today these Polish chauvinists are doing harm not only to Ukraine but also to their own Polish state. For nobody — NATO or any other force — but Ukraine (I told them this frankly in Warsaw) will help Poland if it becomes part of this geopolitical space without our country. Will the Danes or the Norwegians fight for Poland? The point is we have the government, the President, and the parliament. The powers that be must say on behalf of the Ukrainian people, ‘We apologize, but you should apologize too.’”

L. I.: “I heard Mr. Serhiy Shevchuk’s dialog with Polish representative Ms. Bogumila Berdychowska on Radio Liberty. I noticed one thing. Mr. Shevchuk dropped a very innocent phrase, ‘Poland is now facing some domestic problems, and this perhaps caused such an attitude.’

Ms. Bogumila answered, ‘Why is the gentleman so worried about Poland? Poland will do it on its own.’ Then she said something like ‘mind your own business.’ This is quite a telling example. Have we switched from partnership at all levels to confrontation? Apparently, we ourselves have psychologically enabled certain Polish circles to hope that they can solve these problems just now however they want.”

D. P.: “Vice Premier Azarov has been visiting Moscow to make a deal on the so-called common economic space with some CIS countries. The Poles have interpreted this as the first signal that they can treat us with an air of superiority. But Ukraine also has its own interest, and everybody must be aware of this. Issues like this should not be addressed in an emotional vein.”

Mykola ZHULYNSKY: “Mrs. Ivshyna, I have long chaired the Ukrainian-Polish Forum and co-chaired the parliamentary group in charge of links with the Polish Sejm. Despite all the tragedies of my family, I have never told the Poles about this, for I have been doing my best to achieve mutual understanding and work in the name of the future. It is no accident that I noted the role of German war veteran organizations. Likewise, I would like to point out the role of various Polish compatriot organizations which have in fact assumed such public strength that they even forced Kwasniewski to raise this problem at a high governmental level. Maybe President Kwasniewski hopes he will manage to take the situation into his own hands and give it the right twist. Yet, in my view, Polish authorities are failing to keep this situation under control today.

“The Polish side seems to believe that our political and governmental leadership is unaware of the essence of this problem, of the historical subtext and circumstances, and does not know what caused the 1943-1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn. Betting precisely on this, the Poles try to force the Ukrainian side to apologize and thus obtain compensation. I want to say a few words about the book Tragedy of Volyn. It was published with assistance of the Ukrainian- Polish Forum. You just can’t imagine the reaction of my Polish friends: how on earth could the Ukrainian-Polish Forum support a book containing so many facts against Poland? I answered, ‘But you don’t want to know the truth! There is your Polish truth, and there is our Ukrainian truth, and the latter has not yet been fully established — it will still take some time.’ Even if the Poles enter the EU, they won’t feel comfortable unless they find mutual understanding with Ukraine because this understanding will always be on the agenda.”

WE MUST AVERT A CONFLICT BETWEEN AK AND UPA VETERANS

Serhiy SHEVCHUK: “I would like to say a few words about my native Volyn. Volynians are distinguished for their patriarchal setup, sound judgment, kindness and open-heartedness.

“But these good qualities are evident just up to a certain point. For it is quite a different thing when the question is about homeland, kin, and children... Poland, our good advisor and friend, has gradually and quite unexpectedly assumed the function of Ukraine’s ‘advocate,’ looking down on this country as if we were a weakling. The results of this ‘advocacy’ are all too obvious. Then came the period of certain tension in Ukrainian-Polish relations. From May 2004 onwards, Poland will cease to pursue an independent foreign, economic, customs, and other policy because it will become part of the EU. This means Ukraine will have to denounce all treaties not only with Poland but also, incidentally, with the Baltic states in the commercial, economic, and financial areas. Those states are already official EU members under the Athens accords. In particular, this invalidates free trade treaties with the Baltic states and many other, including economic, agreements with Poland, for example, one on exporting our steel and other materials. From now on, Warsaw is not the sole decision- maker: Brussels will be telling Warsaw what to do. It seems to me the Poles foresaw this well before the Ukrainians did. Unfortunately, we are now in a period of conflicting interests. Whether or not we want it, Warsaw is officially trying to confront and downgrade relations with us. In July the Poles are going to put up monuments in Volyn, to say nothing about what they want to write on them about OUN-UPA. This is a far more serious thing than it seems. They officially speak about a genocide of the Polish people. But the word genocide quite seldom occurs in modern history. This means the Ukrainians will be portrayed precisely as the nation that committed genocide against the Polish population. It’s easy to foresee the reaction of other states if the Polish say it was genocide against the Polish populace and we officially admit this. This will provoke a condemnation from at least the European community because Poland is almost a EU member. Then Poland will take us to the Hague court. School textbooks and scholarly studies will be full of references to the fact of genocide, not to mention the property question.

“Mr. Siwiec claims 99 villages were burnt down by the Ukrainians. This is, pardon the expression, a bald-faced lie. I don’t want to hurt Ms. Berdychowska’s feelings, but this is an out-and-out lie. When Messrs. Siwiec and Medvedchuk were recently visiting Hayiv, near Kivertsy, they could see a well- cared-for cemetery as well as a totally unacceptable thing: a memorial stone with a list of villages and townships that Ukrainians allegedly burnt down. I don’t know whether the distinguished guests really saw this stone, which mentions Livertsy, Kolky and many other villages which had never been burnt or ruined. Besides, this is written on our sovereign territory!”

L. I.: “Who put up this memorial stone?”

S. S.: “The Poles did.”

L. I.: “With whose permission?”

S. S.: “With the permission of the local administration heads.”

L. I.: “Why is the Polish side insisting on maintaining direct contacts with bodies of local self- government?”

S. S.: “The Poles do not stay in contact with oblast administrations or councils. They go to district authorities. This is simpler and easier. There’s more than one reason why the local authorities give a go- ahead to do such things. 14 busloads of Armia Krajowa combatants were to have come to attend the unveiling of this monument. They never came. I was approached by our UPA veterans who said to me: if they come, we’ll also come — on foot without any buses — but armed with pitchforks and gas pistols... We then resorted to the following stratagem: we sealed the border for two days, so the bussed Polish combatants stood around and eventually left. We thus managed to ward off a conflict between the veterans. And I am not sure there will be no other similar or even more serious conflicts between AK and UPA combatants.

“Incidentally, to emphasize that Volynians are not as bellicose as the Poles claim they are, I would like to give another, perhaps also interesting, fact. You know that Wehrmacht and Volyn Red Army veterans have been establishing relations of late. They meet each other, travel to Germany, and the Germans come visit us. I once witnessed a very interesting thing. When these white-haired and war- crippled veterans gathered at a table in Turiysk, one German said, ‘Here, near Turiysk, I fought on this side of the river.’ A Red Army man replied, ‘But I also fought and fired in that direction!’ The German veteran says, ‘You know, you might have been shooting at me; look, I was wounded in the left hand.’ And he showed his two remaining fingers. There was a pause. Then the German found what to say, ‘But I still have the right hand to hold out to you.’ They shook hands and hugged each other! Will UPA and Armia Krajowa veterans ever come to this? I don’t know. Still, I would like them to.”

“WHOEVER LIBERATES HIMSELF WILL BE FREE, WHOEVER IS LIBERATED BY SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE DOOMED TO ENTHRALMENT...”

Leonid KRAVCHUK: “We are not discussing today the problem of Operation Wi s л la. And rightly so. For, unlike the Volyn tragedy, the Wisla problem is not a domestic political problem; it came up after Nikita Khrushchev signed an agreement with the Polish Committee of National Liberation. My perception is that if Poland condemns the Wisla Operation (I have heard about this), President Kwasniewski might as well have said in his letter to the conference, ‘Let’s first cancel the brutal decision made by Khrushchev and the Polish government.’ What’s the problem? The point is that far from all Poles share the viewpoint that the Wi s л la Operation was really an unfair and brutal action against the Ukrainians. In any case, nobody from the Polish side has made an official statement to this effect.”

D. P.: “Yes. The Senate has condemned the Wi s л la Operation. I emphasize: the Senate, not the whole Sejm. So this condemnation is not much of a consequence, it does not figure in any documents. Still, we must mention this step.”

L. K.: “But could the Polish president make a relevant statement on this matter? He does have the right to do so. But, instead of making a political statement, Kwasniewski wrote a letter...”

M. Z.: “In which he did not apologize to the Ukrainians but only expressed his sympathy...”

L. K.: “He expressed his sympathy but did not say he condemned the Wi s л la Operation. He wrote this operation should be condemned. But when and by whom? The emphases put in this letter raised many an eyebrow, so many that it appears as if Poland were innocent. But the truth is that the Polish government must take all the blame for the Wi s л la affair. While, quite frankly, both sides are to blame for the Volyn events, the Wi s л la Operation is put on the conscience of one side only. Can we forget about the concentration camp, where 4000 Ukrainian died and only 186 survived? Nor should we forget about other problems still to be solved, such as loss of property.”

S. S.: “Ukraine also saw a deportation, the deportation of Crimean Tatars. Our state has adopted an absolutely humane attitude toward this. Incidentally, Europe does not appreciate this. More than 300,000 Crimean Tatars have come back. The state has given them land. Ukraine renders them as much assistance as it can and has even granted them clearly defined representation in governmental bodies.”

L. K.: “Although it is not Ukraine but the USSR, a different state, that deported the Crimean Tatars.”

S. S.: “The Poles have only hinted at an apology for the Wi s л la Operation, but we take this as a very big step forward...”

L. K.: “Now look, Kuchma is supposed to apologize, while Kwasniewski has not even begged our pardon for the Wi s л la affair. This is a proven fact!”

M. Z.: “Mr. Kravchuk, all this began when you were president. It’s your government that began to pursue a very well-considered policy toward the Crimean Tatars. And the Council of Europe was with us, and OSCE High Commissioner Max van der Stoel came, and you received him.”

L. K.: “We also allowed Germans to return to Ukraine...”

M. Z.: “And all the Europeans saw that Ukraine was the only state that could address so humanely the problem of ethnic, especially repressed, minorities. Let’s consider the following question. Verkhovna Rada had just begun to show a more friendly climate, it was already possible to move the issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, a law had been drawn up... And suddenly the Volyn problem arose. Moreover, emphasis is being laid on alleged OUN-UPA crimes. I want to support General Skipalsky’s position: this is all big-time politics. The aim is, first, to keep Ukraine from restoring historical justice and recognizing UPA a combatant; second, to raise these problems and leave Europe with the problem of the deportation of Ukrainians from Kholmshchyna and Pidliashshia; third, the prospects. Poland will enter the European Union, which in fact solves the problem of borders. If, for example, Ukraine just as quickly got the opportunity of joining the EU, then there would be no border as such between Poland and Ukraine, and the primordial Ukrainian territories we are talking about would belong to Europe as well as to Ukraine because the Ukrainians have a still more legitimate right to return there. This is also a serious problem which neither we nor the Poles are raising. But in this case European borders become a purely formalistic problem, with humanitarian values, culture, etc., coming to the fore. Culture is already a factor that shapes the European theater. And we should have already been taking a quite active part in this dialog. I think there are some other underlying reasons why we are unable today to feel or find the root causes of this very difficult problem. Indeed, we should have studied it.”

L. I.: “So the Volyn events are just the tip of an iceberg...”

THE VOLYN QUADRANGLE: WARSAW — KYIV — BERLIN — MOSCOW

D. P.: “When I was still in Poland, some respected Polish newspapers began to print articles critical of Kwasniewski, Geremek, and then the next foreign minister and suggesting that Poland should not side with Ukraine. Yet, Kwasniewski always stressed that Poland’s Eastern policy is oriented toward Ukraine, a strategic partner and ally. This position gradually came under fire. Why? Because one has to make friends. Who with? With Russia! In the East, Poland’s main partner is Russia, not Ukraine, Kwasniewski’s critics said. Step by step, this idea attracted some Poles and Polish politicians (actually this is an old idea going back to Roman Dmowski and best represented in the Communist period by one Boleslaw Piasecki, leader of the prewar fascist Polish Falange who later made a deal with the Soviets and, as head of the Pax Publishing House, died the richest man in People’s Poland — Ed.). Meanwhile, this is in essence an anti- Polish idea. There have always been two peoples, the Ukrainian and Polish, between Russia and Germany. They have fought each other, and both Germans and Russians were first of all interested in this. In 1943 the Gestapo would set Polish guerrillas against the Ukrainians, give them lists of UPA fighters, and the Poles would then kill real Ukrainian patriots. Our general Skipalsky noted very shrewdly that the Volyn tragedy was not only the result of the pain and the feeling of revenge that the Ukrainians had against the Poles. It is also the result of a provocation by two states. Of course, today’s Russia and Germany are not what they used to be, but there are certain forces that strive to turn the clock back and set again Ukraine against Poland and Poland against Ukraine. And we should not give into this with an emotional outburst: look, they demand repentance from us. Far from all the Poles demand this repentance; this demand emanates from the previously mentioned fact-finding commissions. We should organize a meeting under the Polish-Ukrainian Forum auspices. The Volyn problem should be raised in our parliament — if not at a plenary session, then at least in commissions. Please raise this issue, gentlemen. You are people’s deputies after all. Let us begin a parliamentary discussion on this issue. This problem should be discussed in parliament, not only in an editorial office. And let our president voice his views.”

S. S.: “Above all, I’d like to say there was, as Academician Zhulynsky recalls, a statement made by the NDP faction. Then there was a good chance to discuss these issues, even without calling them Volyn massacre. There was a draft resolution proposed by Yuliya Tymoshenko, Teren, and Bilorus about holding parliamentary hearings on the deportation of Ukrainians from Kholmshchyna and Lemkivshchyna. But it was voted down.”

L. I.: “Parliamentary hearings provide, on the one hand, a good opportunity to show a firm position if it really exists. But, on the other hand, this can also be quite a dangerous thing. It is one thing if you manage to capture the attention of this audience. I am still afraid that this could be quite a risky undertaking. And, frankly, I would like our current discussion, which is sure to be published as fully as possible, to end with a certain number of proposals to the legislative and executive branches. If we fail to get back to the issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, we will miss our chance, because, in my view, this will mean blatant injustice to the Ukrainian nation’s golden stock, the people who risked their lives and took part in the liberation struggle.”

WE MUST UPHOLD OUR OWN VISION OF HISTORY

L. K.: “We have the Volyn and the Rivne compatriot associations... I suggest we get together and, say, offer our viewpoint on the Volyn tragedy’s anniversary. First, there must be days of mourning or days of delegation exchange... Secondly, we could draw up, if not a document then at least a number of items for a declaration or a memorandum on the Volyn tragedy. And the main idea not to be missed: under no circumstances should we allow Ukraine and our national dignity to be humiliated and the truth to be distorted. We must learn to live with the truth that exists, not with one that we would like to see in the name of some abstract goals. If we are unable today to stand economically or politically abreast with, say, Russia, we must at least be able to defend our dignity. We must uphold our own vision of history and stand up for ourselves in spite of any lucrative dividends.”

D. P.: “I support Mr. Kravchuk but still want to note again: the Volyn tragedy is a common tragedy that requires reciprocal apologies. As to proposals, I think, first, that a statement could be made on behalf of not only the Volyn group but also the deputies making up part of the Polish-Ukrainian Parliamentary Group.”

M. Z.: “Jan Bira, Henryk WЧjec and I have decided to draw up a joint declaration of the Polish Sejm and the Ukrainian parliament.”

D. P.: “This can be a laconic statement: a common tragedy with mutual apologies. That’s all. Otherwise we will be never able to break the vicious circle. I have already said our history is full of facts that bring us closer to each other, that enable us to claim that Poland and Ukraine have been friends, not only foes. We fought together, for example, in the battles of Grunwald, Warsaw, and Zamo л s л c... In 1945, well after the Volyn tragedy, UPA and AK jointly liberated camp prisoners in HrubieszЧw. This means there were also individuals who cherished the unity of our peoples. For instance, the Poles feel respect for Petliura. The point is that Petliura said to them in a complicated situation, ‘Take lands as far as the Zbruch but save Kyiv.’ The Poles just misunderstood his message and agreed to sign the Riga Treaty of 1921. That was in fact the third partition of Ukraine by Warsaw and Moscow, and it is worth reminding the Poles of such things. They partitioned us too many times for us to forget it. Yet, at the same time, we must say we believe in those Poles who understand that they need Ukraine and that high-profile campaigns in the year of the Volyn tragedy anniversary, erection of monuments, etc., are anti- Polish actions in the long run. Poland is strong in that there was and still is Ukraine because Cossacks always defended Poland from Tatars and Turks. There are many facts of this kind — all we have to do is look for and show them. Let me quote Taras Shevchenko, ‘Are you boasting of having once brought down Poland? You’re right... Poland fell and crushed you...” This is my vision of policies to be pursued. For while Poland still stands, we do also, and if Poland ceases to exist, we will be in dire straits.”

L. I.: “Thank you for your time. After such a meaningful discussion, we are obliged to solve this difficult problem. It is important that you all have supported our newspaper’s initiative. For our history is not just the past but the beginning of a dialog about the future.”