Why do they live better than us?

The first serious attempt to familiarize Ukrainian television viewers with NATO has been made by the creators of a documentary television series called Traveling through Europe in Search of the Enemy. Director Vadym Kastelli and scriptwriter Yurii Lukanov, who visited some old and new European countries in order to understand whether NATO is a beneficial partner for Ukraine or a dangerous enemy, gave themselves a challenge to shed light on this important topic. Although their film was completed a year ago, because of the late night slot only part of the Ukrainian viewing audience was able to see it. It is not known whether the signing of “the letter of the three” concerning the MAP served as an impetus for this, but the television series is finally being broadcast in prime time and has become a sensational television event.

What is the audience’s opinion? What reactions have you heard?

Vadym KASTELLI: “The opinions of my friends and the friends of my friends are biased. In order to find out what the average viewer thinks, you have to go to the market and ask people whether they have seen the film. Nobody is writing anything on the forum of the First National television channel.”

Yurii LUKANOV: “At yesterday’s meeting I accidentally overheard two women talking. One of them said that she had seen a film about NATO, about some journalists who visited its headquarters. I asked them, ‘How did you like the film?’ And she answered, ‘The film is lively and interesting.’ Here you have audience opinion, which came quite by accident.”

Judging from your previous interviews, your goal during your travels was to find out what NATO is. Did you succeed? Is NATO good or bad?

V.K.: “Honestly, we had a different goal. The original title of the film is different. The title of our film is Traveling through Europe in Search of the Enemy. There is an essential difference here because we did not want to make a film specifically about NATO. And almost everywhere we tried to survey people and observe and look for enemies that do not necessarily have to take the shape of some terrible militaristic alliance. It’s no secret that in the early 1990s Ukrainians were viewed as beggars in Europe, who were trying to get there through some organized criminal group and become involved in disreputable affairs or, at best, to deprive the local population of low-paying jobs. A similar attitude to us existed 15 years ago in Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary. It was very interesting to see whether these views were still in place. Therefore, our task was broader.

“Our second goal was very pragmatic. We went there thinking that all European countries, including our former brothers in the communist camp, live better than us. We did not expect them to live so much better. We had not imagined how backwards we still are. But we went with the aim of understanding on the spot why they live better than us. We supposed that the reason behind this could be that we don’t have much land whereas they do; we don’t have oil whereas they do, or we don’t have gas whereas they do. Or they are smart and we are dumb, or that they managed to enter the EU and NATO by some means. NATO could be ‘blamed’ for their wages and pensions, which are higher than ours. And we got these answers: a) nobody thinks of us as enemies and b) NATO is partially to ‘blame’ for their higher level of well-being than ours.”

Clearly, these were not simple tasks. What kind of journalist should a person be to accomplish the work that you did?

Yu. L.: “Of course, it was no accident that I was invited to take part in this project. About 10 years ago I took part in the US-NATO European Journalist Tour Program. Later I used the data in my book about Kuchma. So I have certain qualifications and knowledge. I have also written scripts for two films. This was the first time that I wrote a script and was responsible for turning it into a film. In the ideal scenario, a scriptwriter has to study all the versions of script development, and then the film crew goes to work. Since I didn’t have an opportunity to visit all the European countries, I wrote a general outline. I also insisted on a historical context. Sitting here, I gathered information by telephone and from newspapers. But a situation emerges when all your plans go haywire once you arrive at the place of filming. That was Vadym’s job: to find an alternative if anything goes wrong or to find another turning point if something doesn’t turn out or turns out the wrong way. He is both a director and a reporter because he has a good nose, and when something goes wrong he follows the track and finds an alternative. As for me, the film came very easily thanks to him.”

V.K.: “What qualifications should a journalist possess to make this skeleton? He must be diligent and persistent. This applies to Yurko. You have to be experienced and have a strategic concept in order to present a journey to 15 European countries in order to make the film in a way that what is happening in the fourth minute of the second series is not repeated in the 17th minute of the ninth series. You have to study a lot of information and categorize it. That is what I call diligence, but Yurko has one more talent. He can squeeze information out of anyone. This is the journalistic aspect of a researcher. I say, ‘You have already written about Lithuania. I’m completely satisfied with it.’ He replies, ‘No, there should be one more story. I have almost a complete feel for it, but I can’t find those people.’ ‘Wait, you’re here, in Kyiv. How are you going to find a story about a small family from a town forgotten by God, which is located between Kaunas and Vilnius?’ ‘No, I will find them.’ He spent so much money on long-distance calls! The ability to find information and to categorize it is very important. What is a skeleton? It is not simply a number of bricks; it is like a DNA spiral. After writing a script, one famous director said, ‘That’s all, the script is ready, all you have to do is shoot it.’ So, with a script by Yurko you only have to shoot the video. The main thing is flexibility, the ability to leave a line that seemed to be the right one, the dogmatic base of the work.”

How did you think through all the nuances, all those “bricks” — with the help of contacts?

Yu. L.: “Through my contacts and Vadym’s. We put all our contacts together. The foundation of the concept is strategy plus people’s stories because this is a popular film. We outlined the main conception, i.e., what is typical of a specific country’s membership in NATO? What are the differences between France and Germany? I was looking for these specifics and I presented them.”

V. K.: “Why did I work with Yurko and why are we still working together? Besides being the author of scandalous verses and epigrams, he is what is called in English a storyteller. By this I mean he is a narrator. Telling the story of how NATO was created and what politicians think about this would be correct but not very interesting. But when you treat this subject from the point of view of people’s stories, the way Yurko is trying to do, that is much more interesting.”

Are there any negative or positive stereotypes of NATO in Europe?

V.K.: “They exist only in our country. In Europe, the richer the country is the fewer people know what NATO is. They don’t need it. Life goes on and everything is well-arranged. What is NATO, what is SEATO — a cricketing organization? So, the life of society is well-organized, it flows on its own, nobody has to think about it. We even asked people on the streets of countries that are especially close to us, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania, ‘Do you know what NATO is?’ The number of people who say they’re not sure is growing.”

People who were brought up on Soviet ideology have certain stereotypes about NATO. Is it possible to break these stereotypes, and how can this be done?

V.K.: “I have two answers: a short one and a long one. The short one goes first: NATO should be renamed OPAD: Orhanizatsiia Pivnichno-Atlantychnoho Dohovoru (North Atlantic Treaty Organization). This is the full correct decoding. So if someone later asks, ‘Do you think we should join OPAD?’ the answer would be, ‘Yes, of course.’ This will give us more than 50 percent of the Ukrainian population who will support it.

“Here is the long answer. I came up with it a long time ago, but the recent gas events topped it off. Let’s imagine the following situation. We are living in an underdeveloped village. Then someone is going to hook the village up to the gas grid. It is clear to everyone that gas is good because it means heating. The job has begun, ditches are being dug. But then it comes to light that elections to the village council will be held the day after tomorrow. There are candidates who are eager to have some sort of slogan in order to build a campaign, but on what campaign platform? Someone comes up with the idea: let’s build our campaign on anti-gas slogans. No to gas! And then it starts: leaflets are issued, as well as films about gas explosions or gas poisoning after a child does not turn off the burner. You are shown examples of houses exploding somewhere in Australia. At the same time, the candidate’s children live somewhere in the city and know how to use gas. He travels to the places where gas is. And the residents of the neighboring village are Old Believers. They are fueling their ovens with birch wood. And the candidates say, ‘Let’s join them. Our parents and grandparents did it this way, and we will do it this way.’ Suddenly half the population starts to think that gas is bad. What should one do with NATO stereotypes? One should make films about ‘gas.’”

Why did it take you almost four years to start making this film?

V.K.: “The Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced a competition of projects about Euro- Atlantic integration. We quickly submitted our idea and suddenly found out that we won, and the ministry gave us some money.”

Weren’t you afraid of accusations that you were making the film to order?

V.K.: “Of course, there were such accusations, and we were very afraid of this. At first, it seemed we had too little funding, so we had to find it somewhere else. We have the NATO Documentation and Information Office, so we got in touch with the administration and obtained our information from there. It was logical for us to ask them for a grant. But we decided from the very beginning that we would not do that. Once the claw gets stuck, the bird is caught, that is, they invest money and you become obliged to them. Later, the Ministry of Defense gave us some money. But it was all simple with the defence ministry. They needed a film to show soldiers in the barracks. We signed an agreement with the ministry, stating — believe it or not — that we didn’t guarantee the ideological result of the film. We were going to make an honest film, and we would praise NATO only if we liked it. We did not allow the inclusion of a clause in the agreement that anyone, besides us, had the right to make changes. So, only we have the right to edit the film.

“Six people went on the trip with us: a director from the Donbas, a cameraman from Mariupil, a female journalist from Kyiv, another female journalist from Ivano-Frankivsk, and a military consultant who was also from the Donbas. Three of us were very skeptically-minded. We immediately said, ‘We don’t know what we want to come back with and we have no ideological goals. We will shoot what we see.’ We tried to be unbiased.

“We are now being accused of creating too beautiful a picture. People are saying that we should have put some black color into the film, not just white. But there was no black! We spoke with a politician in Poland, who told us how quickly the entire country and all the elites had become consolidated and everyone supported the idea of joining NATO. He said he knew what he was talking about because at the time he was still a member of the Communist Party. ‘Weren’t you against this, being a communist?’ We were surprised. And he replied, ‘First of all, I am a Pole.’ When you see a country where communists are not against joining NATO, you understand that this is a normal country. And it is normal first of all because there are few communists there.

“There is another striking moment. The level of cooperation between Russia and NATO, despite the demagogy of their Zatulins (and this demagogy is aimed at us), is three times higher than ours, including the number of working commissions and training maneuvers. As for Yugoslavia, this is a wound that really hurts. Didn’t planes from NATO countries bomb Yugoslavia? We went to one of the former Yugoslavian republics and got unexpected responses from the citizens of Slovenia to our pointed questions. Marshalling their facts, they assured us that everyone was trying to avoid this eventuality up to the last minute. A total of 26 countries were tearing out their hair, understanding that they could not stop the dictator by any other means. Was it necessary to stop Hitler or Stalin? Was it necessary to stop Milosevic after he started slaughtering pregnant women? Let’s start from another point. Let’s ask the Serbs first.”

Returning to the question about Ukrainians’ awareness or lack of awareness concerning NATO: who should be educating them about the Alliance?

Yu. L.: “This should be done by that part of the government that is supposed to deal with this question, as well as anyone who is capable of doing this. I write articles, for example. You don’t need money to write an article. NATO’s problem is actually a PR problem. Imagine we have a car and we’re going to focus our whole attention on the engine: it will be more important than the rest of the car. So, NATO is part of our Eurointegration policy: it is an essential part of it but still only a part. People treat European integration in a normal and calm way. NATO has been torn out of the general context, leading to the notion that it is something separate, a three-headed hydra that is ‘killing’ Yugoslavia, and Europe has no influence over it. In fact, NATO troops are controlled by their governments. Everything NATO does is the responsibility of the European countries. When NATO was created, everyone was sure that the Third World War would begin, but it didn’t. The creation of NATO is one of the reasons.”

In your opinion, should government bodies be organizing events and creating programs for the Ukrainian population to learn about NATO?

V.K.: “I think this is everybody’s business, on an individual level. If you can make films, make a film. If you can talk, then talk; don’t just keep information to yourself. But government, especially our government, has an absolutely natural need to ‘tick something off.’ Once a state program is created and responsible individuals are appointed and are supposed to get reports, nothing good comes out of this. We have programs, but all the funds that are allocated to them are spent on holding seminars and printing brochures that are read only by people who do not have to be convinced. We should not try to invent anything, but simply look at how this was done in the majority of the countries that also went through the stage of explaining to their population that there are many small wheels in this European car, including the engine called NATO. Civic organizations and people who are capable of talking and explaining, who unite a great variety of people, should be doing this. There are a great many examples. Latvia had an organization whose members were doctors, scientists, and engineers. They simply thought that this was right, and on weekends they traveled around talking to people. What should the Ukrainian state do? I think the government should simply give money for this and not try control the process.”

Did you encounter similar popular resistance to NATO, like in Ukraine?

V. K.: “No. The only situation that is relatively similar to ours is Slovakia. It was supposed to enter NATO together with the Czech Republic, Poland, and Hungary in 1999. But unlike the other three countries, Slovakia had its own Kuchma at the time. They had President Meciar, who was an absolutely antidemocratic person. As a result, corruption was rampant in the country: everything was like in Ukraine but on a smaller scale. In 1999 those three countries were accepted to NATO, and Slovakia was shoved aside shamefully. What the Slovaks managed to do in five years is simply incredible, and I envy them. Young politicians came and pushed out the president, and they immediately started to talk to the people. According to social polls, during Meciar’s time the majority of the population was against NATO. Within five year the country developed into ‘the Tatran Tiger.’”

Is today’s generation of Ukrainian politicians able to talk to the people?

Yu. L.: “It is obvious that they are lying all the time. You listen to them, watch them on TV: politicians are correctly linking one word to another, but it is obvious that they are lying.”

V. K.: “I think it is not so much a question of them not knowing how to talk as not wanting to. And they don’t want to because the post of ‘village chairman’ is very attractive to them, and because of this, knowledge of the right direction to go in is sacrificed. Unfortunately, the entire political situation in recent times demands one thing of politicians: when your opponent calls to go left, you must automatically respond, let’s go right. That is why we are standing in one place.”

Have you ever thought of making a film about the Single Economic Space (SES)?

Yu. L.: “Personally, I haven’t. As it is, we know everything about it, we have lived there. What is there to write about?”

V. K.: “In fact, Yurko and I thought about making a film about the EU. The idea is very simple. Why should Trokhym Petrenko from the village of Velyka Vilshanka care about Ukraine joining the European Union? We believe that we know how to tell this story.”

Here’s a question for Vadym Kastelli: you used to work in television, at the First National and Novyi Kanal television channels. Why don’t you work there anymore?

V.K.: “Firstly, it is much more pleasant to be independent than dependent. You know, I wish there were an ideal situation where you could think up a project and your bosses would say that’s a brilliant idea. I have never encountered such a situation, and many of my friends, like my childhood friend Yurii Makarov, are in the same boat. When I saw that I couldn’t find this kind of situation, I decided to be my own boss. Oh, that’s a brilliant idea. Let’s make a film or a series of radio programs...”

Are you planning any joint projects in the nearest future?

Yu. L.: “Vadym is the head of the Rozmai Media Center. I work with them from time to time. We carried out joint investigations of cases involving people who were unfairly accused of committing murder. The results were stunning; I didn’t expect them. The people were released and their convictions were quashed. There are different grants organizations. We have submitted a project called ‘Murderers Who Did Not Kill.’ This will be a series of programs based on the investigations that we have already completed, as well as new investigations. We hope to turn the series into a documentary film and a book. We are experienced enough to do quality work, so the grant givers were interested in giving us more grants.”

Before you started making the film, three people in your film crew were openly skeptical about NATO. Did their opinions change after traveling in Europe?

V. K.: “Only one of the three still had doubts at the end.”