Marek ZIOLKOWSKI: The European space must be broader than the EU
In an interview with The Day, Polish Ambassador to Ukraine Marek Ziolkowski did not speak about strategic partnership. On the contrary, he explained that Poland wants to have neighborly relationships with all countries in the region, precisely from the standpoint of its future EU membership. Perhaps this is a sign of pragmatism, the slogan under which the Liwica Demokratyczna, a bloc of Social-Democratic oriented parties, won the last elections. Ambassador Ziolkowski, however, is confident that from the historical standpoint there is not much friction between the Left and Liberals. To him, Europe is not reduced to EU boundaries (he is also certain that Ukraine still has a long way to go to get there).
The Day: The new Polish cabinet is said to be interested primarily in bettering relationships with Russia, including the new export oil pipeline, and that Ukrainian partnership comes second.
M. Z.: I hope that journalists will soon have an opportunity to discuss it with the premier and foreign minister. They will be in a position to offer a more substantive reply. As it is, the first statements made by our premier and foreign minister confirm the government’s unwavering foreign policy position. It is important to stress that a foreign policy consensus has existed in Poland for the past decade, regardless of who has been premier representing which political force. Premier Miller and the foreign minister repeat all the main principles in their statements. Thus, such allegations are totally without grounds. Our principles include EU membership, keeping on our Euro-Atlantic course, and preserving relationships and cooperation with our neighbors. These principles haven’t changed after the elections. In our policy, there is no contradiction whatsoever between having friendly relationships with Russia and Ukraine. We want to be on good terms with all our neighbors — and their number has changed in the past ten years. We used to have three, now we have seven. We maintain diverse friendly relations with all of them; we recognize their independence, national borders, and the principle of open borders.
Given all these principles and guidelines, foreign policy always requires versatility, including specific visits.
I hope that our cooperation will be even more effective from the economic point of view. I have visited Ukraine’s oblasts and returned with a lot of interesting proposals for business cooperation. Of course, they all will have to be checked out first, but I’ll recommend our business circles to step up their work with Ukraine. I don’t know just how feasible it is, but I know that our president and cabinet also want it that way.
Pipelines constitute a specific issue. Gas is exported by Russia, not Ukraine, but we can discuss this proceeding only from the situation that has developed.
Actually, the issue has caused a serious political discussion in Poland. After all, it is not a matter of Polish-Russian or Polish-Ukrainian relations, it is a European issue, a matter of EU energy tactics and strategy. We can consider it jointly with the European Union in its dialog with Russia and Ukraine. The final decision on the matter remains to be made.
The first and foremost question facing our power industry is how and where to find energy sources. Next comes the question who are we to get gas and oil from. We have an energy source diversification program. It says that we will reduce gas supplies from Russia by 2-3% annually by finding alternate sources.
The Day: Polish EU membership will mean many challenges in Polish-Ukrainian relations. It’s not only visas, but also new tariffs... What would Warsaw propose to avoid new dividing lines that may result from EU expansion?
M. Z.: Tariff policy is primarily a matter of Ukraine joining the World Trade Organization. WTO membership will eliminate the problem, and we will automatically begin to discuss Ukraine joining the Central European Free Trade Association, except that the Association won’t exist by then.
About frontiers: Poland and the Polish people have for a number of years struggled for open borders. It is very important for the Poles that the open frontier principle remains, despite all possible technical changes in the future. So far we have no political solution to the visa problem. It would be premature to say whether we’ll have visas or not. If one takes it as a possibility, European experience shows that it can be done with such technical convenience that it won’t impede open contacts between societies. Such is our dialectic. You might not believe it, but the Czech or Bulgarian experience isn’t the best.
Together with the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry, we are discussing our experience with European integration. There is one road to follow and Poland is sharing its experience on how to do it best. Ukraine might follow the Polish or a different road. Ukraine might even meet the same requirements faster than Poland did. Or maybe not. It is important for Poland that Ukraine keep steadily in its European direction. We also have the right to discuss it with the European Union. Our foreign ministry offered EU a discussion this year on the EU’s eastern policy. In the course of that discussion we showed a lot of issues EU would face after expansion. Of course, they ought to have been perceived earlier. This is particularly true of the issue of frontiers. It is not only the Polish- Ukrainian one, but also Lithuanian- Russian, Romanian-Ukrainian, Bulgarian-Ukrainian, and so on. We showed that the European information policy should also be introduced in EU neighbor states. Add here the issue of aid to countries like Ukraine that aren’t likely to become EU members soon, helping them quickly integrate, economically adjust, and culturally adapt. It’s an extremely important issue. The European Union as an institution will have its frontiers, but European integration, the European space must be broader. This is also included in the Polish foreign policy program.
The Day: Will Poland remain Ukraine’s advocate in the West, as Warsaw liked to repeat previously?
M. Z.: It certainly will. This remains one of our key foreign policy principles. We will continue this policy after joining the European Union.
The Day: This means that Poland will uphold good relations between Ukraine and the EU, but could it perhaps help with Ukraine’s membership?
M. Z.: This is an interesting question. You could also ask what realities we’re talking about, comparing Poland to Ukraine, the Polish road to EU to that of Ukraine. It should be remembered that Poland has been on this road for the past twelve years and is still not a member. And also how different political, economic, and social conditions in Ukraine are from those in Poland, what distance separates these countries. All this must be considered and then a real prospect for a Polish-Ukrainian dialog within the European context must be found. We support the European trend in Ukrainian foreign policy, just as we support the Ukrainian aspiration for WTO membership. It is the only real prospect for the next couple of years. I think your more intensive institutional contacts with the European Union could be discussed after you join the World Trade Organization.
The point is not when Ukraine becomes an EU member (this question will be answered in the long run), but how Ukraine can be a good neighbor of the union after Poland joins it; how well Ukraine will be able to adapt to the new situation.
