Ivan POCUCH: We believe Ukraine should be in the EU one day

Resently published article “The slide of Ukraine” written by the foreign ministers of five EU member countries received great attention in the Ukrainian media. Have you seen from the Ukrainian side that the authorities have noticed their concern and are trying to do something to get out of the deadlock? This and other issues are raised in an interview with Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Czech Republic to Ukraine Ivan POCUCH.

“I do not know yet whether they understood it, but I think it could be clear. I hope it will not be considered as a hostile act on the part of these five countries. To the contrary, this is an expression of our interest and care about Ukraine. These five countries recently have proven to be very interested in the success of the European integration of Ukraine. But certainly, they could not remain silent on crucial issues that prevent Ukraine from progressing in its European integration. They try to call things by their right names, and approach Ukrainian public as well as the political representation. I hope the message will be clearly understood and not distorted. The message is – we all care about Ukraine, we never doubted that Ukrainians are Europeans who are committed to the values and principles that are the foundation of the European Union. But the Ukrainian political representation will have to think about what we have been consistently raising at the highest political level since trials with former government representatives had begun which, as the ministers say, bear all the marks of politically motivated and selective justice. As long as this is not redressed, it would be fair to say to theUkrainian public that the Association process and free-trade area will be put on hold. Certainly, this does not please us, but we are very worried and saddened by the situation as it evolved.”

Oleh Voloshyn, the director of MFA information policy department said, that by this letter European foreign ministers had shown that “other geopolitical choice of Ukraine would be strategic failure first of all of Europe.” How can you comment this?

“Ukraine certainly remains on the EU agenda, it is not going to disappear anywhere. But it is a matter of choice and work for all Ukrainians if their country progresses in European integration or not. Such a crucial issue is a matter of all the society, not only the political representation is involved; it should be a subject of an intense public debate. And that is why we, EU ambassadors, consider it necessary to get engaged in this public dialogue and explain what is at stake. The head of the EU delegation Ambassador Teixeira always speaks on the EU behalf by the nature of his position on any formal occasion. and I very much value his work and interest in your country. He is my good friend and we all stand behind him. I know that sometimes the Ukrainian authorities overreact to these things and regard them as an interference in domestic affairs. But Ukrainian government needs to be able to bear the weight of the international scrutiny, as the country declared the ambition to integrate into the European Union. Of course, we will continue to be assessing and also publicly expressing our assessments regarding the realization of this ambition. As I have said, the public dialogue in Ukraine is not as developed as it should be, it should have much more impact on the political decision making. I see certain detachment between the political level and the general public debate. The notion of diplomacy these days means that we are not simply communicating to the governmental institutions, we are communicating with all layers of the society. Our public engagement is not to shed negative light, but to speak openly and deliver our messages and ideas to the general public.”

Minister of Foreign Affairs Hryshchenko wrote an article in which he pointed out two ways of integration into the EU: a Polish model and a Turkish model. He says the Turkish model is better for Ukraine; we should pursue modernization first and then proceed with integration. What is your opinion on this?

“This is an interesting comparison, but we do not make such distinctions. Both Turkey and Poland declared an ambition to become full fledged EU members and Poland succeeded to fulfill membership criteria. Turkey, as opposed to Ukraine, has been conducting accession negotiations. Regarding Ukraine, we are at the stage of discussing the political association and economic integration, but not the full fledged membership. Ukraine has to prove that it would be mature enough to begin the accession process. The Association Agreement should be a stage where Ukraine proves it is ready in terms of respecting all basic European values to conduct and succeed in the eventual accession process. However, there are certain standards that should be observed even if we talk about the political association only.

“One high-ranking Ukrainian diplomat wrote an article in the last Kyiv Post saying that everything goes fine in terms of the EU integration process and the EU-Ukraine relations. He literally said that the wheels of EU-Ukraine relations are rolling. I would reply in this way: if they are rolling, they are rolling in the air. Which means, the vehicle is not moving. It would be in vain to hope the EU changes its position on the basis of geopolitical considerations. Geopolitics is not as important as some may think it may be. If the issues of politically motivated and selective justice will not be sorted out they will prompt the EU integration of Ukraine to stay on hold. The meaning of the initialling of the Association Agreement is often misinterpreted. It does not mark any progress in the integration. The only good effect is that the agreement can be made public and everyone can learn about the benefits for Ukraine when Association Agreement enters into force. But it will not enter into force until respect for democratic principles and rule of law is complied with.

“Sometimes the EU might be viewed as an incoherent group of 27 countries. But at the end of The Day the EU will always be unanimous in crucial matters, sticking strictly to its fundamental values: democracy, rule of law, and human rights.”

Zbigniew Brzezinski presents the idea of moving the headquarters of Council of Europe from Strasbourg to Kyiv in his new book Strategic Foresight. He says this should be done in order to involve Ukraine, Russia, and Turkey in the West and to reinvigorate the West in this way. What do you think of the idea?

“I have not read the book yet but this idea is as interesting and intriguing as the one, Brzezinski, whom I keep in high esteem, made public some time ago, that the US warplanes should be shooting down the Israeli bombers when Israel decides to strike Iran because of its nuclear program. It is an interesting idea, but I am not sure what is the rationale. I do not know why we should be starting with the Council of Europe. I do not know how physically moving the headquarters of one international organization might help reinvigorate the West. In what sense? Perhaps he means that the countries might feel more obliged to comply with the commitments of the Council of Europe.

“There is one more important thing about the European integration. It is not only the trials with former government representatives, not only range of problems relating to full respect for democratic principles and fundamental freedoms that hamper the progress of Ukraine. It appears to me that the lack of consensus on the strategic direction of the country hinders the smoothness and the speed of Ukraine’s integration even more.

“The Orange Revolution succeeded in many things. But the government established in its aftermath failed in fixating the strategic course and making it irreversible. It seems to me that much more could have been done in these five years, but the political in-fighting between two leading personalities of the Orange Revolution had been the cause of that failure. For an outside observer it looks like the integration into the EU is still a subject of bargain, a subject of negotiation. This is not a zero sum game, where one side wins and another loses, it has to be a mutually beneficial process.”

But the strategic orientation of Ukraine is written in law which by the way was passed by the current Ukrainian authorities.

“In the beginning of the 1990s our transformation began under the slogan ‘We are coming back to Europe!’ which did not mean that we are trying to join the EU and NATO immediately. That slogan expressed the consensus between the political class and the society that we simply want to renew democracy, rule of law, human rights and fundamental freedoms we lost due to the communist coup d’etat. There was a unanimous and spontaneous movement of the whole nation that we wanted to get back where we were in the Interwar period. That helped us a lot, that was a clearly fixated strategic course. Comparing the transformation processes in the Czech Republic and Ukraine yet another absolutely crucial thing is presence or absence of strong political leaders. Vaclav Havel was the symbol of dissent in my country in the communist era. He was absolutely instrumental in the process of reforms in overcoming moral devastation which was enormous after 40 years of communism, which is equally enormous in Ukraine after 70 years of being under the brutal Soviet rule. And I have to mention our current president Vaclav Klaus who was a prime minister then. He was instrumental in overcoming our economic obsolesence because he stayed very persistent on the way our economy should be transformed despite there were a lot of arguments against what he was proposing. They both succeeded because they were strong-willed politicians who were not derailed in what they considered right.”

Vaclav Klaus compared the European Union to the Soviet Union.

“I am not going to interpret the views of my president. But sometimes his views are interpreted and understood in a misleading way in the foreign media. He is not against the European integration per se, he is against the further deepening of political integration and giving more and more powers of a national state to a group of people who did not go through political competition to get to positions where they assumed enormous political powers.”

In one of your previous interviews you mentioned that your priority is to deepen and intensify the political dialog. Have you succeeded?

“When it comes to bilateral relations, we have to measure their quality not only by the intensity of political dialogue at the highest level. I would say that the intensity of our political dialogue simply corresponds to what we have gone through in our relations in the past 18 months. It is not absolutely dynamic or meeting the potential that we have as two very close countries. But we are very consistent, we are trying to support Ukraine no matter what. We are trying to support it on its path to the EU, because we believe Ukraine should be in the EU one day. But we are not talking about the membership yet, Ukraine is still at the stage of political association. For our support we do not expect anything in return apart for decent treatment.

“We do not expect anything in return. Despite tension in our relations last year, we invested 2.2 million euros, at the time of the crisis, in the construction of the new containment sarcophagus in Chornobyl. We are continuing local development projects, for example we are trying to encourage the tourism in the Crimea and the Carpathian Mountains. They have fantastic potential, but the infrastructure is not there to attract Western tourists. There is plenty of other ways of our support.

“But we are not trying to draw public attention to our help. I can see enormous potential in your country but there are three great problems that prevent Ukraine from unlocking this potential.”

And what are these problems?

“The first one is what I call the self-destructivity of the domestic politics. More energy is spent to outsmart, outmaneuver, suppress or limit one’s political opponents rather than to take initiative, show to the public the rationale of what I stand behind. It seems to me as if the politics stood beyond the life of the society, as if it were in the bubble, separated from reality. The second problem is vast social disparities. No society can have a healthy development with such great social disparities. One of the aims of any economic transformation should be the gradual optimization of social stratification of the society. In other words, the national wealth should be distributed proportionally to the whole society. I see this as a big obstacle, a big impediment for the further development and internal coherence of the Ukrainian society. If there is a prevailing feeling that there are those who rule, and those who are being ruled with little impact on decision-making processes, the society would not be prospering. I know this transformation is difficult, because unlike our Western colleagues, we have felt it on our own skins. And when we speak openly about it, it is not to criticize Ukraine, but to help avoid certain costly mistakes that we have made. And the third problem is the legacy of the Soviet past. It is still so much rooted here, it is sometimes evident in the way of thinking, in the style of management, in how issues are tackled. I could give you tons of examples, but it is the most visible in the way people treat each other. There is not enough respect among Ukrainians towards each other. And we, foreigners, are then puzzled when we do not get responses to our requests and offers. I am an active person, I want to meet as many people as possible. But what can I think of the situation where I cannot get response from a high-ranking state official for five months? For a simple request like ‘I would like to meet you and introduce myself.’ What can I think of so many cancellations of meetings in the last minute? It simply is something I cannot understand, and it is damaging the image of Ukraine among foreigners. It also impacts on the way the economic environment is shaped.”

Can you name those people who do not respond to your request?

“I do not want to complain. Besides, I do not have many Czech companies on the phone complaining. On the other hand, I would like to give a good example, concerning the work of Minister Viktor Baloha. We agreed that I would be transferring concrete problems and difficulties of the Czech companies and investors directly to him. He himself as the co-chairman of the Intergovernmental Mixed Commission on Economic Cooperation would take care of it. The transforming economy needs a lot of foreign investments, not only because of the flow of money and goods, but because of know-how and style of management. That is what we needed in the beginning of the 1990s. After coming out of the ineffective, centrally run economic system of the communist era, we needed foreign investments and assistance. I love giving the example of our Skoda car company. Who knew Skoda in the beginning of the 1990s? Perhaps a couple of countries within the communist block. And with the arrival of foreign investor who obtained the majority in the privatization process, Skoda Auto is now, for example, the main sponsor of Tour de France and exporting its cars to more than 100 countries. I am sure that without good privatization process, without having foreign investors come and invest, Skoda Auto would not have been that successful. The point is the government should pay great attention to creating incentives for foreign investors to come. I am not complaining: we worked out a mechanism with Minister Baloha and I am very grateful. But overall I can hear a lot of troubles regarding law enforcement, customs, return of VAT. It should be the other way round. Foreign investors need to feel they have nothing to fear if they invest here. What is absolutely crucial for the flood of foreign investments, is the success in the European integration. In our case, it was integration into NATO. I cannot give you precise figures, but our joining NATO in 1999 created a new wave of foreign investments. That was a clear signal that ours is a safe country. The more you will be integrated, the safer the foreign investors will feel.”

Have you seen any positive changes in the business climate in these six months?

“Recently I had a meeting with the Head of the State Tax Service of Ukraine, Oleksandr Klymenko. I had a very positive feeling from what he said and how he explained the changes contained in the new customs code.

“I would like to add that there is a mirror effect between the progrees in your own transformation and the progress in your European integration. The success of your own transformation may furthermore have strong and principal impact on other former Soviet Union countries. Ukraine is big enough, important enough, and resourceful enough. That is why it may really set the model of transformation for the former Soviet Union countries. That is why we all wish Ukraine to progress and that is why we simply wish that Ukraine uses all the tools to unlock its potential, be it the Association Agenda, Association process and also we should not forget Eastern Partnership. Eastern Partnership was not created to slow down the integration process but to accelerate it and to assist in bringing Ukraine closer to the EU.”

Which sources of information do you use to learn what is happening in Ukraine?

“The greatest achievement of the Orange Revolution is the freedom of speech and media. When I go to the web, I can have a wide range of independent reports. I have a couple of favorite Internet news agencies and read daily printed media, like your newspaper and Kommersant. Foreigners eagerly read Kyiv Post.”

What do you do in your free time if you have any?

“I do have free time. Those who do not have free time probably cannot organize their work properly. You can lead a fascinating life here. We have our 17-year old son with us, he attends the Kyiv International School. They have great after-school sports events. Quite recently I was attending a basketball tournament organized by his school. I am sportsman, I used to play football and tennis at a pretty high level. I try to keep myself in good physical shape. Recently, we had a very good cross-country skiing on one of the islands on the Dnipro river. I was really glad that there is a decent golf course not far from Kyiv that meets European parameters. I started playing golf three years ago as a part of my medical therapy. I collapsed out of exhaustion while leading the EU presidency in international organizations in Vienna. The golf was a new challenge to prove I am able to learn something even at this age. Good thing is that both my wife and my son play it too. We know that Kyiv is the cradle of the Orthodox Church and that is why we are visiting all these monasteries and churches. I have already traveled to Zakarpattia and Crimea and your country is simply fascinating. And what I like specifically is communicating to casual people, not only to so-called upper class. It is very confusing when I receive invitations that indicate that representatives of ‘elite class’ will be there. There should not be a feeling that there are ones ‘down there’ and ones ‘up there.’ Sometimes people here are very surprised that the ambassador talks to them with interest. What is so unusual about it? It is very normal as this is a profession as many others. I hold in high regard those who work manually and are able to produce a chair, for example.

“I fully believe in the potential of Ukrainian nation to develop and to shed the remnants of the Soviet past. I know it is the matter of time. I am very glad to see that now a new generation is coming to important positions in the society, those who actually were born after Ukraine gained independence, who are not so stuck in the past. And also what is interesting for me is that I can see new promising politicians here. I think there is a good prospective of new emerging political parties and leaders. Take Vitali Klitschko for example, he is a very interesting man. I met him, I was invited to dinner with him. Last Monday I was attending a preview of the movie about the Klitschko brothers. And I really respect them both as sportsmen and appreciate what they have achieved. But there is an interesting feature about Vitali I discovered when I talked to him. He really means what he says, he is not trying to impress anyone by what he thinks of his career as a politician.”