Arsenii YATSENIUK: “National dignity comes first…”

The strategy Arsenii Yatseniuk chose after the presidential elections has proven to be effective. His forces came in third in the local elections. Refusing to assume the office of deputy prime minister for economic affairs, which President Viktor Yanukovych offered to him, did Yatseniuk a lot of good. It will be recalled that the Front of Changes leader affirmed that he would only accept the post if he could implement his own program, in contrast to Serhii Tihipko, who turned out to be more flexible.

The leader of the Front of Changes party, MP Arsenii Yatseniuk agreed to answer The Day’s questions concerning the Tax Code, commemorating the Holodomor victims, results of the local elections, freedom of speech, the ability of the current authorities to carry out reforms, the state of the Ukrainian society and ways to change it, and Ukraine’s foreign policy.

Today we are witness to the new phenomenon taking place in Ukrainian society — the Maidan protest by entrepreneurs. How, in this context, should we perceive the president’s veto, for it was known that the entrepreneurs were dissatisfied with the new Tax Code from the onset?

“For me this veto is of economic rather than political importance. Everyone kept saying that people would not rise in protest. Five or six months ago I said that they would do so, when the Party of Regions entered their homes. Today not only has it entered their homes, but also started to open their drawers, seizing everything that was left. It turned out that people are ready to go to the Maidan and say ‘no.’ They have overcome the fear existing in the society. This is the first thing. Secondly, once, when Leonid Kuchma was Ukraine’s president, Viktor Medvedchuk said that ‘the power was stronger than ever.’ So at present the power is weaker than ever because they are not aware of what they are doing. It was not the Tax Code that was vetoed, but rather their non-professionalism, their hunger for power without understanding what power is. On the whole, this is a veto of the system. The system has broken down. Why are bridges never built as monolith structures? Because they will break if they cannot ‘breathe.’ And they have built a monolith bridge.”

What do the Maidan protests of entrepreneurs mean for you?

“They mean that freedom cannot be stopped.”

On The Day of Commemorating the Victims of the Holodomor you went to the memorial together with Viacheslav Kyrylenko, Petro Poroshenko, and Mykola Martynenko. Does this mean anything? Second, what kind of society did you see on that day?

“Do you know what I felt during the commemoration of the Holodomor victims? It was a totally different atmosphere — no formalism whatsoever. No association with the government. On the contrary, all mentions about the government were regarded an unbecoming. People paid homage to the victims of the Holodomor, following their own beliefs. It was a real Ukrainian stand. It means that Ukraine does have national awareness, and if there is one, this means that there are full-fledged Ukrainian citizens who are going to fight, not only for themselves, but also for their country. Some critical mass is needed for this. At present I am not ready to say whether there is critical mass of such national awareness, but I am ready to forecast that it will emerge.

“Last week I was sitting and flicking through TV channels. My favorite is called Rada. It was broadcasting a film on the Soviet regime. I caught myself thinking that nothing had changed since then. Eighty years have passed and there is no difference between Chechetov and Kosior [a Party of Regions MP and General Secretary of the Ukrainian SSR, respectively – Ed.]. They seem to be one and the same person. Who created all of this? The same Ukrainians who spoke the same language we do today. They would come to a house where there was nothing to eat and pour out the last pot of borshch.”

According to the results of the local elections you rank third overall, having outmatched even Strong Ukraine. What is the reason for your success and Serhii Tihipko’s defeat?

“I do not overestimate my success. Yes, our party came third. This is a result of yearlong work, while we stayed in the opposition with minimal resources. Our situation was complicated. Having implemented the regulation on 365 days they deprived us of the right to take part in the elections. The government won a large part of majoritarian battles. In spite of this, the Front of Changes candidates came second with the difference of 7 to 50 votes. The Party of Regions came first. Why do you think this was? Because they abused everything they could.

“Three conclusions can be drawn concerning the local election campaign. First, the result of the presidential elections has been reinforced. Second, we have taken our stand, and people felt it. Third, we formed local teams. Now we should think how to use it. These days I have started to train all of our deputies, as we have nearly 3,000 of them, with 70 percent being people who have never worked as deputies. I personally took part in this training. We taught people what being a deputy is and what one ought to do, when taking such office.

“Speaking about other political forces, I don’t know what was going on with them, but I wish them success.”

You were the first to register the draft law on holding the elections on March 27, 2011. Taking into account the current situation, do you still have any hopes for this date?

“Speaking about the elections, I believe the president should have taken a rigid stand and said: ‘I have acquired Kuchma’s powers, which means that the parliament has also acquired the power for the term stipulated by the Constitution of 1996.’”

Many experts believe the Party of Regions saw Yulia Tymoshenko as their main rival in the recent elections, and thus most administrative pressure was targeted against her forces. They have let the rest of the opposition to “swim freely” so far.

“We were excluded from the election process. Pressure was applied against every strong member of our party. This is the reason why many candidates have left our ranks. Those included teachers, doctors, scholars and businessmen. They were simply called and told, ‘You have an alternative: either you leave the Front of Changes, or you lose your job.’

“I think it is hard to find a rhetoric similar to mine. I simply don’t offend anybody personally, unlike other political parties from the opposition camp. I have been targeted by such rhetoric during the presidential elections. This is wrong and only weak politicians dare do this.

“I should say this point-blank. Do you think I have not been offered the office of the head of the oblast councils in Ivano-Frankivsk and Lviv? I have. It’s just that the offers came from the Party of Regions. Haven’t I excluded four city council deputies from Chernihiv, because they voted for the Party of Region secretary for the Chernihiv City Council? Look at Dnipropetrovsk, where we had the same level of support as Tymoshenko and Tihipko, though this is their native city. We are the only fraction that has declared that it belonged to the opposition, and did not vote in either city or oblast administrations of Dnipropetrovsk. This is not an easy thing to achieve.

“We are not a wild opposition, rather a civilized one, with a strong stand concerning this regime. Incidentally, due should be paid to the Party of Regions for the unity inside the party. It’s a temporary thing, as the current trend is not favorable for them.”

Speaking about the trends within the Party of Regions, indeed, one of the reasons that may split this party is a clash between the groups of influence. Can this lead to weakening and splitting of the Party of Regions?

“The boat is small, and demands are high. You are completely right.”

Excuse me, but the boat is the entire country, where their power is being gradually reinforced.

“They identify the country specifically with a boat. It’s their thinking standard.”

Can they split while fighting for the boat?

“No, they will be squabbling, dividing something, but they will stick together for sure. This is their principle, confirmed over the past 10 years. I don’t believe that the Party of Regions will split. I believe that it will go out, because the voters will be disappointed with them. Time is needed for this.”

Taking into account the ways of ruling the country, shown by the ruling party, how real is the “Russian scenario” for Ukraine?

“First, let us recall Kuchma’s book Ukraine is not Russia. Second, I cannot imagine Russian entrepreneurs going to the Red Square, and their president vetoing the Tax Code. Third, in order to establish a ‘Russian model’ in Ukraine several important conditions are needed: oil, gas, Vladimir Putin and the Russian people.”

After the new team came to power, many are blaming the SBU for illegal actions against historians, journalists, students. Besides, journalists frequently mention that the authorities curtail the freedom of speech. The same is being said in Europe. Have you noticed these dangerous trends?

“I have gone through the presidential election campaign. There is no reason to hide that the then democratic government also gave an order not to show me. Therefore what is going on today is the continuation of the traditions of what has been going on in the previous years. It’s just that now they have become smarter. I watch certain talk shows and I know who is making them and by what means. This is a sort of technological propaganda scheme starting from “Vox populi” and finishing with certain messages. Current leadership is more creative in this concern. They present information ‘more correctly.’ These problems have always existed in Ukraine, but now they have just grown more acute. The reason is that the media market is divided between several people. Incidentally, this was the very reason why I submitted a proposal concerning the amendments into the law on the freedom of speech, but there is no possibility to adopt it. Unfortunately, Ukraine does not have any free journalism as yet.

“I saw in the blog of Ukrainska Pravda, with someone mentioning the Goebbels formula: 25 percent propaganda, 75 percent entertainment. Look at the Ukrainian channels. We have gone even further: 5 percent free speech, 15 percent propaganda, the rest is entertainment.”

Recently within the framework of the Diplomatic Club (a joint initiative of the Foundation Open Ukraine and Viktor Pinchuk’s Foundation) a meeting with Belgium’s ex-prime minister Guy Verhofstadt took place. During his speech the respected guest emphasized that there is a need to create post-national Europe, a single European identity. How do you see this task? Secondly, the famed American historian, researcher of the Ukrainian Holodomor James Mace many times stressed in his publications for Den that Ukrainian society is a post-genocidal one. It is worth admitting that many Ukrainian politicians have no notion whatsoever about national identity. In your opinion, how can these two notions, “post-national” and “post-genocidal” be merged in Ukrainian society?

“In order to have anything supra, you should first have national things. This is the starting point. There should be national awareness, united by the single Ukrainian national idea. For me the national idea is very clear-cut. First, it includes national dignity and love to one’s country. When asked what I love my country for, I reply, ‘What do you love your parents for?’ It is simply natural. It is love and knowledge of one’s language, culture and history. Love to every citizen, whatever his religion, origins, or language of communication, because all of them make up the Ukrainian people. Then come national ambitions. What is a national ambition for me? This is a desire to be in first place and strong — not constantly trying to catch up, but ahead. In order to have national dignity and national ambitions one ought to have a clear-cut action plan to change the country: what to do, by what means, how to persuade society that this should be done. Such a national plan envisages a national leadership that has never been present in Ukrainian history, which has always featured enmities, a struggle for territory, resources and people; fights for direction to follow, west or east, and who prefers the Russian tsar, the empress, or Polish and Austro-Hungarian kings.”

Is the current leadership able to carry out its European course? The salient issues right now are the free trade area and visa regime with the EU.

“You should ask them about this. I will tell you, if you ask them about the reasons why they have come to power, they will tell you nothing besides personal motives. I have seen very interesting stats recently: election campaign expenses in relation to the GDP in the US, Germany and France. In this question we are ahead of every country on the planet. Do you know why? Because power is everything for us. In Ukraine power means welfare, profit, control over people, this is the way to satisfy one’s needs. In Europe and the US this is huge responsibility. This is the main difference between us and them. Incidentally, here lies the main difference between my vision of power and that of the Party of Regions.

“I set an objective before the members of our party — to understand that they are working for the welfare of the community, which decides whether they will be reelected. And the Party of Regions has decided that one should not go to the elections at all. One can get the majority via administrative methods, like they have done in the local elections, having ‘grabbed’ so many deputies. This must be the ‘formula of success’ of the Party of Regions.

“Are they able to do anything? I cannot see anyone there who would understand what a state is. If you ask me who my political opponent in a discussion on the essence of the Ukrainian state and the Ukrainian political nation would be, I won’t know what to say as I know no such name. And this is regrettable. I mean that I would like to have a strong political opponent in the Party of Regions to come and tell me, ‘You are wrong.’”

Do the absolutely opposite promises given by Viktor Yanukovych in Brussels and Moscow mean that we are coming back to Kuchma’s time of having no policy orientation?

“Overall our foreign policy has no direction. This is a sign of weakness. This means that we won’t be respected either in the West or in the East. Moscow will mock Ukraine’s European prospects, and Europe will deride Ukraine’s brotherly relations with Russia. I think we will see lots of interesting information on WikiLeaks.”

Does not the Party of Regions understand this?

“You know it is very hard to struggle for the state. But this is the only correct path for a political leader of a nation, because you are struggling not for yourself, but for millions of people, your country. I have gone through this in various offices. When you say something in the name of Ukraine, the reaction is absolutely different. Maybe your partners won’t like his, but you defend a certain stand and explain: ‘Why do you think I should accept things harmful to me? For you don’t accept things harmful to you. If your rules are fair, let us try to reach an agreement on equal footing.’ Such a stand is met with respect. Judging from my experience as a foreign minister I can say that if your format is a pro-Ukrainian, albeit rigid one, you will win understanding. And this is very important in international relations.

“I think that for our president it would be very important to focus on gaining support inside the country, not abroad. Then he will feel absolutely differently. Now the level and trend of presidential support is no different from that of the previous president. What would I do if I were president? First and foremost, I would focus on receiving proper support and understanding from Ukrainians. If you are a president enjoying the support of two-thirds of the population, other countries will also treat you differently. Otherwise you will speak, but nobody will hear you, or they will simply pretend to listen. If you are a president with strong support inside the country, other countries will also feel it.”

You have said recently that the declaration of Ukraine’s non-alignment is Russia’s victory and NATO’s defeat. What has Ukraine won?

“This is also Ukraine’s defeat. Narrowing of the field for maneuvering. The idea of NATO membership is not Yushchenko’s brainchild, but Kuchma’s (to be more precise, Yevhen Marchuk’s). In the early 2000s the Law ‘On the foundations of national security and defense of Ukraine’ was adopted. At the time there were complicated circumstances for the Ukrainian president on the international arena – the tapes scandal and murder of Gongadze. Kuchma took an interesting strategic decision under those circumstances – he announced that Ukraine was moving towards NATO. By this he broadened the field of maneuvering for himself. He told our Russian partners that Ukraine was going to negotiate about security space, but Russia only had the Collective Security Treaty Organization, which Ukraine was not ready to enter, as it was more interested in the Western alliance, NATO. So, we are not saying that we will enter it, but our aim…”

You were Den’s guest this summer. After a substantial conversation we published an article entitled “How to Charge the Society? Arsenii Yatseniuk: I am thinking about it.” Have you already found the way to do so?

“A citizen can be charged only with his personal success. Everyone in Ukraine should understand that his success is his country’s success and vice versa. This is a formula of success.”