“Why should Turkey join United Europe ahead of Ukraine?”

The Day’s correspondent interviewed Horst Kachele, a professor at the University of Ulm and world famous psychoanalyst, Victor Kann, co-chairman of the Adlerian Psychology Association of Austria, and Oleksandr Filz, deputy chairman of the European Association of Psychotherapists and chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy Postgraduate Education at Lviv Medical University. All three observed Kyiv in the days of the orange protest rallies, being especially careful to look into the faces of rally participants.

“What emotions did you experience on Independence Square? Have you come to any initial conclusions? If so, what are they?”

Oleksandr FILZ: “I have thought a great deal about what is happening. It matters to me if my opinion corresponds to other people’s views. Personally, I think that Ukraine has declared a war on outdated social and bureaucratic structures. But whether we will have a new government is not the point here. The government’s attitude toward its people must change fundamentally. The distinctive feature of what is happening now is that a historic revolution has begun with the slogan ‘For the Truth!’ Arguably, there have been no revolutions with such a slogan before. We had fought for social justice and independence, but never for the truth. And this prime mover might prove to be contagious not only for the East, but also for the West, infecting Old Europe with a new spiral of the struggle for true democracy, stirring the student movement to activity, and bringing about many other developments that we aren’t expecting.

“Second, a revolution is underway, which is special in revolutionary terms because this one is an evolving revolution. Every revolution that takes a radical path brings a new bureaucracy to power; every revolution gradually acquires the features of a counterrevolution. Meanwhile, an evolving revolution is free from such features because it is establishing a new system of relations. Relations created during this revolution will leave an impact on society for years to come.

“I have another important conclusion relating to psychoanalysis. An unorganized crowd depends on a leader. But people on Independence Square were self-organized, and no leader was coordinating their actions. My son and daughter were in Kyiv at the time. My daughter volunteered to help with medications, while my son addressed accommodation issues. In general, no one organized the Kyivans to bring food or help the tired and cold people, whom they put up for the night. They did this spontaneously, as their heart dictated, considering such aid to be their civic duty. Special structures emerged automatically. I would call them autopoetic structures, a term used in the theory of systems to describe a process whereby order emerges from chaos. Only a handful of crystallized points are required for order to form around them.

“The ratio of tolerance to aggressiveness on Independence Square is especially surprising. The purpose of practically every revolution is to seize power through violence, pressure, or aggression. Yet here the level of tolerance has been supernatural, which is perhaps due to our mentality and the socio-biological traits of people who live here. On the one hand, Ukraine has been patient for a very long time. On the other hand, it won its independence in a non-aggressive way, which set the pattern for all subsequent transformations.”

Horst KАCHELE: “What I find interesting is the combination of the words “peaceful” and “revolution.” History has seen such revolutions before: East Germany, Portugal, and now Ukraine. Was a peaceful revolution in France, a peaceful fall of the Bastille, possible? No, not at all. It is only in our days that the masses are able to receive news as it happens, now that communications technology has risen to a new level. Communications systems used to peaceful ends in Kyiv have made public response prompt, public awareness broad, and the means of achieving their goal peaceful. Cellular phones, the Internet, and television have joined the revolutionary process, causing people on Independence Square to depart from the usual revolutionary methods. After all, other signals were needed in the past, such as gunfire or calls to set a palace on fire.

“The latest events, influenced by the speed with which information is spreading, have also led psychoanalysts to revise their conclusions. Now we cannot say that the Freudian theory about mass processes is completely true. Now the masses are responding differently. Now seemingly fewer global issues have a chance to change the world. Ukraine began talking about democratic and fair elections, and this single element has had a colossal effect on people. The Archimedean principle is at work: ‘Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the earth.’ The people of East Germany did not seek to change the whole country. They only wanted the right to move freely and the possibility to travel in the world. But they changed everything! And if you succeed in your strivings, the issue of free elections will change your country.”

Victor KANN: “When I visited Ukraine six years ago and switched to Russian, people reacted in different ways and sometimes were not very friendly. This time I had the illusion that the language issue would again become the hot topic. But no! And I consider this a sign of progress and a telltale difference. The issues of democracy, common to all humanity, have come to the fore.

“This is the case of a little boy who liked chocolate and thought that when he grew up, the only thing he would do would be to buy as much chocolate as he wanted. But once he grew up, chocolate was no longer on his mind. Other things had come to the fore.

“In my native Austria I watched the television broadcasts attentively, trying to read the emotions and sentiments driving the masses. As far as I can judge, I got the impression of a well-organized crowd with good ‘behavioral logistics.’ The people observed order and the crowd was self-controlled. Naturally, organizing such a large number of people required significant funding and extensive preparations. Our papers wrote about this openly.”

“Skeptics say that should the opposition succeed, many people who addressed the crowd with grandiose revolutionary speeches will simply become richer tomorrow. After all, the key questions in any revolution, even an evolving one, are questions of power and redistribution of resources. There is little hope that the hunting estates of officialdom will become recreational areas for disadvantaged families with many children.”

Oleksandr FILZ: “Indeed, there is little hope. Still, changes are needed. Those in power can no longer be that hypocritical. They must be accountable to the people: lawmakers to their constituents and officials to the taxpayers, from whose pockets they receive their salaries. There is a need for a fundamental liberalization of relations in the state system.

“Granted, it is difficult to get rid of venal officials, but even bribe-taking must become less blatant. There will be no more putting up with it.

“I find it very encouraging that a colossal number of people, virtually everybody who arrived for two or three days from villages that in many respects are remote from the capital, and gathered on Independence Square has discovered the gene of freedom in their souls. This gene will not allow these people to remain part of ‘a patient and long-suffering nation,’ but will turn them into citizens who feel responsibility for their country. In other words, they will be able to ask what those upstairs have done for Ukraine.”

Horst KАCHELE: “A chance to change something is very important to people. I don’t mean ideology, but the practical possibility to change the quality of life. If decisions are no longer made in a centralized manner, i.e., if many issues are decided at the local level through self-government, as it is done in European countries, then changes will be round the corner.

“Frankly, your revolutionary situation was a big surprise for Europe. We used to think that Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were ‘cooking their dinner’ in their own way, so, we thought, let them continue doing so. Now many will be asking themselves the question: Why should Turkey join United Europe ahead of Ukraine?”

“Does the average European differ from the average Ukrainian in ethical terms?”

Horst KАCHELE: “There is the notion of the necessary ‘false self,’ a definition coined by the English analyst Donald Winnicott. It is an insulation layer of sorts, which helps a person remain safe and sound under any conditions. I’ve been traveling to Moscow for the past fourteen years and have a certain experience of communicating [with the locals]. A Soviet person (a post-Soviet person) resembles the Siberian tundra with its thick, ice-cloaked external layer: the higher the temperature, the thinner this external layer. We witnessed this during the Nazi era: the external layer was a protective mask, and hidden beneath it was the human self. After a certain period spent on the couch, in a safe spot, everything changes and it no longer makes any difference to the person. But, in principle, each one of us has this type of mask, possibly of a different thickness, for life is not without problems. We also have enough of them. People fear for their jobs and thus lose their identity.

“Nonetheless, we communicate and understand one another perfectly. Everything is changing: our life conditions and masks. Meanwhile, the European Union is not such a bad system of government for people not to try living according to its principles. Ukraine is very important to Europe, and I think that someday we will be together.”