Yatseniuk’s 12 points

True, society is fed up with politics, but when a politician is expressing fresh ideas, she arouses interest.

Mr. Yatseniuk, you took part in this year’s economic forum in Davos. Did you see that world leaders are prepared to ride out the crisis together or will every country have to do this on its own?

“My feeling is that the world political elite is aware of the necessity to join forces to ride out the crisis together. Still, no unique worldwide recipe has been devised so far — either in Davos or at the international summit New World, New Capitalism held in early January in Paris. Everybody is declaring the necessity of combating protectionism but is in fact taking protectionist measures. Everybody says the International Monetary Fund may play an important role as the world’s unique central bank, but in fact this remains just words.

“Nobody wants to have a supranational body that would run the financial system. Everybody is saying we must unite, particularly within the UN framework, but nobody is uniting. So my impression is that everybody will be riding this crisis on their own. A lot of questions have been raised about the crisis of capitalism. I beg to differ. No capitalism has been built. Do we have capitalism in Europe? What Europe has is classical socialism.”

What does the US have then?

“There is more capitalism in the US, naturally. But Europe is classical socialism. So what was the difference between America, Europe, and China — a country, which is showing, together with India, positive results today? Both Europe and the US spent more than they earned. Meanwhile, China and India spent less than they earned. This is why the latter have a much larger cushion of competitiveness. Naturally, these countries still have an underdeveloped society as well as social and economic problems.”

B> Mr. Yatseniuk, you noted during the Davos debates that the world economic crisis had become a total crisis for our country. This, naturally, demands new efforts from our politicians. What kind of people should go into politics to be able to really pull this country out of the crisis or at least choose the right way out?

“This is the most difficult question for any responsible individual who has come to power. The first question is, What do we do?. The second is, Who do we do it with? I emphasize that this is for a responsible person. But for the current powers that be it does not matter what to do and with whom — they only wish to remain where they are.

“Speaking seriously, I have already drawn up a 12-point anti-crisis plan. The first five points are about the banking system and call for transferring problem assets to a single state bank furnished with maximum liquidity. What has remained of the banking system should be immediately placed under control to avert a domino effect. Moreover, the banking system should receive liquidity from the central bank in order to exclude the possibility of speculations on the domestic stock market and of the illegal outflow of capital abroad. Besides, one should impose control — temporarily, during the crisis — on the banks’ credit portfolios so that target-oriented credit programs may be linked to the amount of liquidity made available by the central bank, which will refinance the infrastructure projects that can make it possible to ride out the crisis. First of all, it is necessary to additionally fund the farming sector this year to forestall social protests. The same applies to construction and automobile-making. In my opinion, we should now draw up and carry out credit programs to stimulate purchase of cars produced in Ukraine, housing, and other domestically produced goods.

“We should urgently impose new rules on the insurance market in order to prevent intentional losses, as well as revise the budget and throw out the stupidities that the MPs managed to railroad.

“Ukraine should urgently begin negotiations with the Federal Reserve, which could, in theory, provide direct or indirect financial aid. Naturally, under no circumstances should Ukraine allow a sovereign default. There should be no difference in gas prices for different sectors. The entire domestic gas output should be placed under control and put up for auction. We should reduce gas consumption as much as possible and keep intermediaries, including the Russian Gazprom’s subsidiary, away from the market.

“This country faces increased unemployment and the return of at least one million job-seekers from abroad. These people have some money, so I would offer them real training and have their earnings channeled into small and medium-sized businesses. And I would advise having the unemployed involved in ‘Roosevelt-style’ public works.

“I also suggest making a model of the domestic governmental loan and, in general, a wider use of debt instruments inside the country. We should not finance social expenditures by printing money. This would be a catastrophe. We must not withdraw money from the economy and the budget and then spend them again for social needs. We must let the economy work.”

And who could do this?

“I do not rule out that a certain government could do this. I will not use the word ‘stopgap’ because there is no such thing as stopgap governments. I mean a government that will come to power before the presidential campaign and will stay on after the inauguration. A new president does not automatically mean a new cabinet: the latter changes only when the coalition breaks up or when there are grounds for an early parliamentary election. This would be a cabinet that would, firstly, announce that it will not take part in the presidential campaign and, secondly, put forward an anti-crisis plan signed by all the faction leaders who have voted for this plan. This government ought to assume all responsibility and say: look, we are doing unpopular things and are not playing politics.

“Are there people like this? I think so. What is more, they are from the caste of both young and old officials who are prepared to sacrifice their prestige, for the majority of society will never support this kind of things. Society can only support this some time later, when it sees that there is no other way out. And this could work. But I will say this now: I see no possibility. I am idealizing the picture. In realty, let Tymoshenko work together with her cabinet and her [parliamentary] majority. They have a majority together with the Communists, so let them work and rotate ministers. Let us stop bugging them, for it will be the same story as with the parliament, when the speaker was fired and a new one was elected just on the spur of the moment. When Lavrynovych was putting the matter to a vote, everybody knew there would be no votes.” (Laughs)

But the government has no anti-crisis program...

“That is right. There are only some disparate chunks of lobbyism and hopes that if we bail out a certain industry, this will save entire Ukraine. This is absurd. Take car-making, for instance: it is the postponement of death, not a revival.”

We are always criticized for a lack of unity among the political elites and the leadership. What can force the leading politicians and political parties to rally together and try to solve the most important problems in this country?

“This is not realistic. Politicians cannot rally together. There should be a strong opposition and a strong coalition. This is a real thing. And all these alliances are nothing but an attempt to divide the pie called state. They identify the state with this kind of a pie with 46 million — pardon the expression — boors and vassals. And what they call unity is nothing but re-division of the spheres of influen­ce. I do not believe in this. Let everybody do his own business: the opposition will criticize the government and force it to work, while the coalition will bear the responsibility. The only question is rules and procedures. We lack some maturity in these matters. Matu­ri­ty will come in due time. This is why I believe in strong politicians, not in alliances. I want to have a strong opposition, a strong coalition, and strong leaders at the head of these institutions.”

You must have heard the well-known philanthropist George Soros say about Ukraine: it is a valuable endangered species, so it is important that Europe help Ukraine and fund programs. Can Europe be really expected to do so in the current situation?

“Europe is now beset with so many problems... In my view, Europe will overcome the crisis later than America will. The US is a mo­re rigid centralized system. It is a classical presidential federal republic that has mo­re clear-cut centers of influence. As for Europe, I can recall the words of Henry Kis­singer: ‘We are prepared to work with Europe. But whom do I call if I want to call Europe?’ The EU is in the same situation. The Lisbon Tre­aty has not been ratified, there is no cohesion and integrity among 27 countries, and socialism and populism are also holding sway the­re. I do not think Europe is now prepared to help Ukraine in any way. Much to our regret, the gas crisis made everybody show their true colors. My feeling is that everybody will be forcing their way up on their own.”

Incidentally, well before speaking in Davos, German Chancellor Angela Merkel called upon the European Union to back the Nord Stream alternative project. Does this mean she is siding with Russia, which is interested in this project?

“This is a very old story with extremely deep roots. These roots are linked with large-scale lobbyism of energy companies in the European political life. This is the reason why Europe does not yet have a single energy policy. Nobody wants to have one. Everybody wants to have their own islet of energy. This is no surprise for me. This is Germany’s business. But, at the same time, Germany does not understand one simple thing: the number of gas pipelines does not affect the volume of gas and the number of the supplying countries. One can build a hundred pipelines, but they will all begin in Russia in any case.”

As is known, Ukraine has sullied its reputation during the gas crisis...

“We were greatly assisted in this.”

How can we restore it? Besides, we should not forget that the Gongadze case is still ‘hanging’ in the PACE.

“The world respects only strong politicians and strong states. The world only res­pects a strong position and a position as such. This is what I can advise. I can give you examples from my own life. If you are taking a stand, you will be respected because it is your own stand, no matter what kind of stand it is. The same applies to states. This should be done in every concrete case. You cannot take only the gas issue out of the context and say, for instance, that we will restore our reputation thanks to a new gas deal. No. These problems are so closely interconnected that we should resolve them on a comprehensive basis instead of picking out individual elements.”

Who will be able to do this?

“I’ll tell you this: I am either stupid or overoptimistic. One thing or the other (Laughs). I do not believe that such a big country will go belly up. This must not happen, for we have been fighting for something else. The country still has people and energy resources that we should pile up. In the conditions of a danger, we must marshal it, although it is being snatched away from all sides.”

I cannot help raising the Russia question. Has the animosity in Russian-Ukrainian relations gone too far? Russia has been spewing inadmissible rhetoric in the last while. Recent talks on the border problem showed no progress.

“Do you remember our discussion 18 months ago about what we need in order to develop normal relations between Ukraine and Russia?”

Yes, you said we need mutual respect and mutual trust.

“We will not do without Russia. Nor will Russia do without us. The two countries depend very much on each other. But I would not like at all to see Russians, our brothers and friends, resolving their domestic problems by creating an external enemy. We’ve gone through this before. This was in the Soviet era. We are not Russia’s enemies. There is not a single Ukrainian who would be an enemy of the Russian people. The opposite is a lie, a gimmick, a fable. But neither is there a Ukrainian who is ready to be a vassal of Russia. We are prepared to be friends, to hug and kiss, to have mutually advantageous relations and conduct all kinds of dialogues, including difficult ones. But we are not prepared to kowtow. With all my respect and love for the Russian Federation, we won’t do this.

Incidentally, no matter what someone may say, we are not prepared to kowtow to and are not an affiliate of Washington. Nor are we ‘ammunition bearers’ for Brussels. I am putting all these things next to each other at the same level. I am not against Russians, Americans, or Europeans. I am just for Ukrainians.”

But Russia keeps on accusing Ukraine of allegedly illegal arms supplies to Georgia. How can we put an end to this? Why is nobody saying that Russia armed South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

“Who is the world’s biggest arms supplier? Russia. We are not responsible for the way these weapons are used. Likewise, Russia and other supplier countries are not responsible for this. This is up to Russia as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, which, incidentally, voted for Georgia’s territorial integrity twice.

I favor tightening control over arms trade. On the other hand, a serious war is going on in this field for sales markets. So this wave of discrediting is aimed at pushing Ukraine more and more down the list of arms sellers. While we have been one of the top five arms sellers before, today we are among the top ten and tomorrow we will be among the top twenty. We are supplying weapons for security, not for aggression. I do not support the pattern of actions used by the Georgian leadership during the conflict. But these are the actions of the Georgian, not Ukrainian, leadership.”

Speaking of Europe again, do you think Brussels is taking too pragmatic an attitude to Russia as the main supplier of energy resources and is saying nothing to that country about values?

“It is true, indeed, and it has been so for a long time. Europe does not want too many difficulties with Russians. It is absolutely clear now. God forbid Europe should opt for the same relations with Russia as the West once had with the Soviet Union: give us gas and oil, and we will fence ourselves off — do what you please at your own territory. This was the pattern of relations. Only Americans would spotlight values.”

But Europe is calling upon us to instill European values. Does it not look like a policy of double standards on the part of the EU? And what if Ukraine joins the EU but the latter will no longer cherish or will even lose its own values?

“Values cannot be lost. It is politicians who may lose values. Meanwhile, values live eternally and are picked up by various societies. But some politicians turn values into a deal of sorts.”

Mr. Yatseniuk, can we say that Ukraine has only two ways to choose from: European and Russian capitalism? And what about a third one, i.e., American capitalism? All the more so that things are cheaper in the US than in Europe...

“The two countries are entirely different. So I would not compare us with Americans. We must say frankly that we are very far from them. It still seems to me that the world balance is only possible owing to the United States, Europe, China, and Russia. And the current global disaster – economic crisis – is going to change the players’ influence, not their number.

If someone thinks that he will become stronger in this global disaster, he is badly mistaken. Everyone can only become weaker. This will naturally affect the geopolitical aspect. Ukraine is not a country that needs a king or a queen. I do not believe in this. Even if we elect a king whom everybody will love and who will have a 100-percent rating of trust, exactly six months later 100 percent of the people will favor quartering him. This is the specifics of our nation. This means there should be a balance of power in the state, as is the case in the outside world. Nobody has the right to monopolize power, truth, and justice. No one should be holier than the Pope. I think these are banal and easy-to-see things about how a society should live.”

Let us discuss the party life now. You reportedly wish to establish a party. If the Internet is anything to go by, you have already come under the first attacks?

“Yes, I have.”

Rumor has it that Firtash will be your sponsor.

“As you know, everybody can write what he pleases. There are two main political forces that oppose me. Two key headquarters have hired spin masters and are fighting me. There also are two smaller headquarters that represent two lesser political forces. The situation is that I have no allies today. And thank God. I am not seeking allies among politicians. I am seeking allies among the grassroots because I do not trust the current political system and the people who represent it. That’s because I know this system from inside.”

Mr. Yatseniuk, can you say which of the oligarchs is going to back you?

“I don’t want to be backed. I will say for all to hear: if some of the oligarchs choose to support me, I will, firstly, gather them all and invite the press. Let them say that they are giving money, why they are doing so, and on what conditions. Ms. Tymoshenko need not worry: I will write to 100 top Ukrainian oligarchs and invite them to come. Let them say what they are going to support. I will not be hiding. I never cash in on politics. I will need money to conduct a public campaign and to struggle with them. The money I will get is not for business, for I am not a businessman. It is they who want to go into politics for the sake of business. I will show all this in public.”

It is clear that there can be no politics without money — if only the money was legal...

“Oh! Firstly, I am going to move a draft law. Secondly, I will do this even without a law, as I’ve already said: I will appeal to all, to small and medium businesses, and to oligarchs. I will make public the lists of and information on all the people who will contribute financially. Let the people see. This will, incidentally, be an indicator of whether or not they are supporting me. And let the others do the same.

We should not opt for forming an oligarchic pool. In that case you will be a plaything and will run up debts that you will never pay off. This must not be done. I will never play this game. If I wanted this, I would still be the parliament speaker, a ‘top boy.’ I would be sitting there, putting on airs and saying ‘wise’ things.”

Incidentally, has the crisis begun yet to affect the economy’s transparency?

“The economy is going to be grayer now. A crisis always makes an economy less transparent, not the other way round. We can already see barter, which immediately influences the index of opaqueness. So we will again have to try to ‘clarify’ the Ukrainian economy.”

Why are we still failing to bring our economy out of the shadow?

“It is a very complicated problem which requires an integrated approach to the culture of business and taxation and the system of supervision and control. These things are interconnected.”

In what way is the gas war going to affect the political rivalry of parties and the future of our major political forces and their leaders?

“I think the opposition showed a very strange behavior in this gas war. If the current opposition were in power and brought over this kind of a gas contract, the current government, which would be the opposition, would throw it out with pitchforks. Pitchforks! I know what I am saying. So it is a dark story. I don’t want to delve into it. Let it be done by those who are supposed to do it. We must think now what to do next.

I do not rule out that, after a certain period of time, we and Russians will be able to agree, without too much political screaming, to revise the very formula. For the formula is such that, under certain circumstances, the gas price can jump to 0 per 1,000 cubic meters. We have no right to consume twice as much gas as Poles do. We should not be Europe’s largest buyer of gas and have the lowest per capita GDP. Besides, I have moved a bill on gas monopoly. Let Naftohaz be a monopolist until there is a design to liberalize the electric-power and gas markets.”

Speaking again of your dispute with the BYuT, are you really going to run for president?

“I am so far forbidden to run for president. The Constitution says one must be 35 years old. I am still 34. I will turn 35 in May, so ask me then.” (Laughs)

All right, I will surely do so. Then tell me please what Ukrainians should do to live to see the presidential elections.

“It will be difficult to live until then. The number one task now is to survive. I am saying this honestly. What we are supposed to do is not grow, reap profits, or launch some outlandish projects. Survival is the word!”

How can one survive when factories are being closed and the budget is being revised?

“One must carry out at least half of my anti-crisis plan. Then we will surely survive. This is not the first or the last crisis.”