On the instruments of Euro-Atlantic integration

After a recent visit to Brussels and Wroclaw, Vice-Premier for European and Euro-Atlantic Integration Ivanna KLYMPUSH-TSINTSADZE wrote on her Facebook page as follows: “In Europe, Ukraine must continue to actively explain and defend its positions. It must offer its vision and decisions, and supply all kinds of information about real changes and problems in the country, the enemy’s actions – about all that we consider easy-to-grasp and well-known. It is difficult, but not impossible, to debunk myths. We’ll have to go down a hard road to occupy a decent place in Europe and worldwide.” So, the interview began with the questions: “What myths do you mean? Why is it difficult to debunk them? What can Ukraine expect from the NATO summit in Warsaw?”

“OUR DUTY IS TO PUT INFORMING EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND SOCIETIES ON THE AGENDA”

“There are very many myths about Ukraine. For example, a visa-free regime for Ukraine is now under discussion. Obviously, some are saying that this regime will touch off a migration wave from Ukraine. And none of our friends is going to explain that, in reality, we had no essential increase in the migration wave, in the number of refugees or asylum seekers from Ukraine in 2013-15. This in no way creates new migration problems in the European Union. It is just some manipulation. These things should be explained, and we should display statistics and say that Ukraine has met its commitments.

“We are also dispelling all the time a popular myth that there is a civil war in Ukraine. We have confirmations from international organizations and intelligence services, the Special OSCE Monitoring Mission, that it is a Russian aggression and that Russia is supplying weapons, Russian servicemen are training even Ukrainian citizens on the occupied territory, not to mention the mercenary militants they recruit on a contract basis. Russian propaganda is actively trying to spread this kind of myths among the EU public at large. Even if EU politicians are aware of these things, we should go further and give more lucid explanations to the EU grassroots. It is a serious job, and, obviously, nobody else will be able to do it, for the EU is facing a lot of problems. So it is our duty to put informing European countries and societies on the agenda.

“But we know all too well that Chancellor Merkel is 100 percent aware of the current developments on Ukraine’s occupied territory. And, thanks to her firm position, EU countries share the same view on sanctions, no matter how hard it was to achieve this. It is Merkel who helped achieve this unity.”

“PUTIN CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE OF A SHARP REBUFF”

But recently Frankfurter Allgemeine quoted Merkel as telling the CDU congress that “a Russia-assisted civil war is going on in Ukraine.”

“I saw this phrase, but it is difficult for me to judge whether it was torn out of the context or was used in a certain context. It would not be exactly polite to do so because the German chancellor is taking a firm stand against Russia’s intervention into our land.

“I hope we all know very well that the Donbas conflict can be settled by political and diplomatic means only. It is also obvious that we must remain well-prepared and have a reformed army capable of defending its country. One does not exclude the other – on the contrary, this requires a joint effort. But, at the same time, we understand that we need European and trans-Atlantic unity and support if we are to face Russia. For Putin can only understand the language of a sharp rebuff, and, for this reason, we must further stand together with the EU, which is a difficult thing to do.

“It is also a myth that sanctions against Russia do not work – they must not be relaxed or lifted. We should work on this matter. For, on its part, Russia is trying to impose this myth through European business which wants to cash in on trade. And, on our part, we should reiterate that there is a clear dividing line between supporting a democracy that is fighting for territorial integrity, independence and sovereignty, and trading with an aggressor, a dictator.”

When you were visiting the NATO headquarters, you had a closed-door meeting with ambassadors of the Alliance member states. Would you tell us what you discussed with the NATO secretary general and ambassadors?

“As part of a meeting of the Ukraine-NATO Commission at the level of ambassadors, one of the instruments we use in our dialog with the Alliance, there was a briefing of NATO member states on the developments in Ukraine.

“Some items were about preparations for the meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission at the level of defense ministers to be held on June 15. Our Minister Poltorak will present the Strategic Defense Bulletin which our president signed yesterday [the interview was recorded on June 7. – Ed.]. The meeting will discuss a comprehensive aid package for Ukraine, now being finalized and to be approved at the NATO summit in Warsaw. Besides, the meeting focused on the current challenges and our vision of Russia’s violation of the Minsk Agreements in concrete figures and manifestations. It was stated in particular that the Russian Federation continues to break the agreements reached at the highest level. I think it was a very useful and frank conversation with our NATO friends and partners. NATO is an organization that is steadfastly taking a firm stand on the Russian aggression against Ukraine and is not going to drop it.”

“THE ALLIANCE MEMBER STATES KNOW THEY WILL BE UNABLE TO HELP UKRAINE UNLESS NATO IS STRONG”

What is NATO’s vision of settling the Donbas conflict, halting the Russian aggression, and bringing Russia back into the international legal framework?

“I can feel that the Alliance member states are well aware of the fact that they will be unable to help Ukraine unless we jointly strengthen our defense capability, support each other, ensure the validity of Article 5, and, in general, unless NATO is strong.

“This does not mean that NATO or its individual members are going to fight in some way on the territory of Ukraine. But, on the other hand, this means that they will help us reform our armed forces and are prepared to cooperate with us in averting nonmilitary dangers and to offer political support. And it is quite an important factor. For, in this case, the aggressor remains alone in terms of ideas and loses the possibility of breaking through to the civilized world. This is a political and diplomatic platform that rests on the unity and commonness of positions.”

What do you expect in general from the NATO Warsaw summit?

“I think the Warsaw summit will make a lot of decisions, including one on defense and security cooperation and coordination between the EU and NATO. Although some states are members of both organizations, the latter are not identical.

“The summit will also discuss increasing defense expenditures. This follows the demand of the US which spends quite a lot on defense. As is known, the Welsh summit 2014 urged the Alliance members to try to raise their defense expenditures to 2 percent of GDP. As of today, five countries have reached or exceed this figure, and another five will be spending 2 percent by the end of this year. In my view, the summit will hear partners insisting that defense expenses be put up as a show of joint responsibility.

“The summit will make special decisions on increasing NATO’s clout on the eastern flank. I mean the increased presence of troops, including the rapid deployment force. The same applies to the southern flank, on the border with Turkey.

“[NATO Deputy Secretary General] Vershbow said at the Wroclaw forum that NATO would rest on three Ds: defense, deterrence, and dialog, but from the position of strength. I think a dialog from the position of strength is a very powerful message.”

What does Ukraine expect from this event, especially taking into account that the president will participate in the meeting of the Ukraine-NATO Commission?

“In my opinion, increased presence on the southern and eastern flanks is a serious decision for NATO and the EU.

“Ukraine expects the summit to approve a comprehensive aid package and give a clear political signal that NATO unequivocally supports Ukraine’s sovereignty and insists that its territorial integrity be restored and the aggressor withdraw from our land.”

“THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE GONE THROUGH THE ENTIRE CYCLE OF STRATEGIC PLANNING”

And what about this summit granting Ukraine the status of NATO’s associated partner, which some European publications have written about?

“There is no such status. We are a partner state, a powerful recipient of NATO’s potential. In particular, owing to the program ‘Science for Peace and Security’ and the program of preventing civil disasters and emergencies, our country has received most of the aid in the past two years. Before that, it was the Russian Federation. These NATO-Russia cooperation programs have been folded up now. Meanwhile, implementing these programs, we are showing the ability to make effective use of this aid. It is, for example, about the purification of waste water at military bases and about the most up-to-date mine clearing equipment. In other words, a lot of projects are being carried out, and I don’t think we are adequately explaining that NATO is much more than a purely defense or security entity.

“You will agree with me that, by introducing a nonaligned status, ex-president Yanukovych seriously thwarted all our previous efforts. I can see that a lot of institutional objects, created before Yanukovych had come to power, were deliberately eliminated. We reached certain progress in our relations with NATO in 2008-09, but documents to this effect were intentionally destroyed even at the Foreign Ministry.

“Before the coming of Yanukovych and Azarov, the Cabinet Secretariat had a NATO cooperation department staffed by 16 people. Now it is just a section with two employees. One of my goals (approved by the Cabinet and the prime minister) is to reorganize and restore the possibility to coordinate, work, and ensure our cooperation. And there are many other things like this.

“Getting back to the question of our expectations, we believe that NATO’s declaration in 2008 that the door for Ukraine and Georgia remains open is the Alliance’s full-fledged promise. But, to apply for a MAP, we must do some more things. In addition to taking certain steps forward, we must also restore what was done and then deliberately destroyed.

“Therefore, undoubtedly, we should actively emphasize that we are moving towards [NATO] standards. But we must work really, not only make declarations. I think we are on this way and have gone for the first time through the entire cycle of strategic planning – from the national defense strategy to the military doctrine, from the concept of defense sector development to Strategic Defense Planning and now to the Program of Armed Forces Development until 2012.

“In other words, the way we used to do internal planning and assess our armed forces is just an incredible story. We have a concrete reference frame now and know where we are going. We are setting ourselves a very clear and concrete goal now – to set, monitor, and try to fulfill annual assignments. We want the executive power to do its job, the media and parliament to monitor, and nongovernmental organizations to be involved in both the fulfillment and the monitoring. We should restore our capabilities, and ministries should employ people who know how to cooperate with the Alliance.”

Do you think it is worthwhile now to reestablish the governmental commission for cooperation with NATO?

“Governmental agencies are still debating on this commission. I think it will be reestablished in the next few weeks. Incidentally, the National Security and Defense Council resolved in 2014 to form this kind of an interdepartmental commission. We also have now a vice-premier in charge of this – that is, me. The commission’s staff and other details are still under discussion. We have already chosen 28 ministers and agencies to take part in its work. We are encouraging them to do this faster.

“But I am one of those who are not waiting for the commission to formally begin to function. We already held an informal meeting on May 31, just on the eve of my visit to the NATO headquarters. It was important for us to understand what questions we should raise with our NATO partners. At the same meeting, we decided to see to it that the Alliance’s current trust funds work in a different way.

“This coordination is in fact a difficult task not only for Ukraine. You can see this after speaking to colleagues from the US or any European country – even they, who have been walking down this path for years, have still failed to reach an ideal, while we are only at the beginning of this path.”

“I WOULD LIKE TO RESTORE THE PROGRAM OF PUBLIC INFORMATION ABOUT NATO FOR SEVERAL YEARS”

Incidentally, what do you think about a NATO membership referendum that could confirm the course towards integration into the North Atlantic Alliance?

“We are only at the beginning of this road. Thank God, we have sufficient support. I think we should increase this support by informing the grassroots. We used to have a program, which was carried out sometimes effectively and sometimes for appearance’s sake, where we explained what NATO is. We spoke about a wide range of things that NATO deals with, about what integration into the North Atlantic Alliance means. So, I would like to restore the program of public information about NATO for several years. Nongovernmental organizations could also play a very important role here. It is important that ordinary people know what NATO is when they go to the referendum. There is a great deal of emotional support for the Alliance due to a threat from Russia. This can be seen as just a possibility of military protection. But it is about something much more than this. And I would like the people, who will vote at the referendum if we ever hold it, to show a much more conscious support for the Alliance. We must not take a pro-forma approach to this matter.

“NATO countries begin to study our experience of waging a hybrid war, for they have never come across this before. I am convinced that our soldiers can teach their trainers, and this may be occurring now in a non-structured way. Unfortunately, waging this war, we have no time to record our experience in a proper manner and offer it to our partners. I hope this will be done in the course of time.

“I think Ukraine has a huge number of things to share. As for the cyber sector, Ukraine can also share its experience and become a contributor to solutions, not to problems.

“NATO member states are also beginning to understand that there are areas in which we have moved farther than they have – not because we wanted this but because, unfortunately, we have gained the experience they don’t have by way of challenges, trials, and errors.”

And what can you say about what we can offer NATO? As is known, we and the Russians participated in the NATO-sponsored SALIS program of strategic airlifting.

“We are requesting our partners to carry out the SALIS strategic airlifting program in partnership with Ukraine only, without the Russian Federation. We have a sufficient capacity to carry out heavy cargo airlifting for NATO operations. Besides, our peacekeepers are stationed now in Kosovo and Afghanistan. It is also of paramount importance that we are contributing to NATO security. This has a value of its own, and we have seen that those who took part in peacekeeping operations know how to conduct battlefield actions.”

“I HOPE THE NEW UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO NATO WILL BE INTRODUCED AT THE SUMMIT”

Incidentally, we recently received a group of Marshall Foundation NATO experts who said Ukraine should not be afraid to intrude on the EU comfort zone by demanding NATO or EU membership.

“It is one of the instances, where we are not afraid to intrude on the comfort zone.”

Who is our new ambassador whom the president will reportedly introduce at the summit?

“I cannot say who will be Ukraine’s ambassador to NATO because this is within the competence of the Foreign Ministry and the President of Ukraine. But it is in fact extremely important, and I believe this problem will be solved in the near future at the Warsaw summit, even though we have a very good team at the NATO headquarters. I am one of the people who map out the state’s policy and are interested in the new ambassador being introduced in NATO as soon as possible. But I hope this problem will be solved in the near future, and the new Ukrainian ambassador to MATO will be introduced at the summit. We have a wonderful mission at the Alliance, and an active group of people is involved in cooperation with NATO.”

“SINCE WE ARE MEETING OUR COMMITMENTS, WE EXPECT A RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR ON THE PART OF OUR PARTNERS”

Ukraine’s Ambassador to the EU, Mykola Tochytsky, said recently that Ukraine should treat unwillingness to grant Ukraine a visa-free regime as failure to meet EU commitments. What do you think?

“I think the EU is considering a proposal to postpone granting a visa-free regime. This is under discussion at the European Parliament. But we should stand our ground and say to our European partners: since we are meeting our commitments, we expect in return a responsible behavior on the part of our partners. For it is a dialog that will ensure further trust and achievements through our joint efforts. So I think it is a matter of joint responsibility. Since we, on our part, have taken a responsible attitude to our commitments, we equally expect the same responsible attitude on the part of the EU.”