YURI DUBININ: "RUSSIA DOES NOT NEED TO BE A SUPER-STATE"

The Day: Finally the Grand Treaty between Russia and Ukraine has been ratified by both houses of the Russian Parliament. But on the eve of this event Russian television conducted the direct poll of it audience and nine of ten callers spoke against ratification. And the very process of ratification was far from smooth. What are such attitudes connected with?

Ambassador Dubinin: The most important thing is that the treaty is ratified. This is an event of great importance for strengthening mutual trust between Russia and Ukraine and further developing cooperation between them. Yes, the debates were emotional, and very sharp statements could be heard. But the discussion showed a great deal of deep and sincere popular interest in the way they see the relations between Russia and Ukraine. And these voices should be listened to in the course of the treaty's execution and general enrichment of our relations.

The Day: What was the role of your Prime Minister's personality?

DUBININ: It was decisive. During the second consideration of the Treaty Mr. Primakov spoke for its ratification and offered a suitable formulation concerning ratification of the Black Sea fleet agreements that was positively taken by the majority of Senators, and this contributed to the positive vote.

The Day: Is conditional ratification in accordance with world diplomatic practice?

Ambassador: The ratification is full-fledged. The resolution of the Soviet of Federation reads: "To approve of the Federal law On Ratification of the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership Between the Russian Federation and Ukraine."

The Council of the Federation only suggested not to put the Treaty into action until Verkhovna Rada ratifies three basic agreements on the Black Sea fleet. This is a political wish. It means that we will exchange ratification documents after Verkhovna Rada ratifies the fleet agreements. As a matter of fact, the Ukrainian party suggested the same thing.

The Day: Do you think it possible that in twenty years the Russian Black Sea fleet might leave Ukraine? And another question: the number of personnel and fighting equipment of Russian Black Sea fleet in Crimea is regulated by a relevant Ukrainian-Russian agreement and the Treaty on Limiting Conventional Arms in Europe. Nevertheless, the German delegation that recently checked the treaty execution in Crimea recorded that the Russians exceed the established quotas, of tanks in particular. What are your comments on these infringements?

Ambassador: I am convinced that discussing some hypothetical possibilities would be a waste of time.

As for the Black Sea fleet, additional agreements that would render some points concrete are needed. And they should be worked on more actively.

The Day: What do you think of the CIS future?

Ambassador: The process of major reforms in the CIS is underway. And all the member states are interested in this. The desire of member states for contacts can be felt more and more distinctly, and it instills confidence.

The Day: But Uzbekistan has already declared its withdrawal from the Treaty on CIS collective security, while Georgia and Azerbaijan are also considering such a step. It looks like Russia has nothing to counter this.

Ambassador: Participation in the Treaty on collective security is voluntary. I do not understand why Russia must counter anybody with something.

The Day: Is it not a super-state?

Ambassador: We do not strive for such a role. Russia is quite satisfied with being one of five great states that are permanent members of the UN Security Council.

The Day: Could you name the spheres where our relations are developing best and where they are least developed?

Ambassador: The major achievements of our relations lie in the sphere of politics - it is once again the Grand Treaty, the ratification of which became top news for all world news agencies.

In the economic sphere there are both pluses and minuses. Unfortunately, it is fashionable in the mass media now to cover only the minuses. There are some reasons for this - last year the goods flow between our states was somewhat reduced. But it was about $12.5 billion! Ukraine's second foreign trade partner is four times behind Russia according to this index! And think, what $12.5 billion means for Russia and what it means for Ukraine. It is of enormous mutual benefit.

Or let us take for example the cooperation in the sphere of automotive industry. Last year the output of Gazelle automobiles in Ukraine rose twofold to 7000 units. They are assembled not only in Simferopol but also in the Kyiv region. GAZ (Gorky Automobile Factory) has developed a great deal lately. Gazelle modifications were modernized, and they proved to be quite competitive.

Russia and Ukraine together presented the world tender on the AN-70 aircraft that was estimated by many foreign specialists as the best in the world in its class. Its designers, who propounded its concept many years ago and went through with its realization under very complicated circumstances, deserve all possible praise. And there are many other such examples. But, of course, the goods flow between our states should be three times larger, as it is provided by our program of cooperation to the year 2007.

The sphere of cultural exchange is well developed, too. In Kyiv I often have occasions to visit concerts of Russian performers of various schools and trends. And the hall is always full. Kyiv Russian Drama Theater and Ivan Franko Theater were a big success in Moscow. And all this is under free competition, where people choose what they like. Thus a simple truth is proved: we can draw boundaries on maps and on land, but souls and hearts cannot be divided.

The Day: Soon the presidential race will begin, and the Russian mass media are very influential in Ukraine. Which candidate will they support? Which candidate is most desirable for Russia?

Ambassador: Russia is very cautious in everything concerning Ukraine's internal affairs. The Ukrainian audience and readers of Russian mass media often complain to Moscow editors' offices that television and newspapers pay too little attention to events in Ukraine. As for Russian diplomats, they never break the general ethical rule of respect towards Ukraine's internal affairs.

The Day: Diplomats of such high level as yours speak several foreign languages. Do you speak Ukrainian?

Ambassador: When I came here, I was very much interested in what Russian and Ukrainian languages have in common. Having read a textbook I started studying Ukrainian from a book about Yaroslav the Wise and Volodymyr the Great. It was a little difficult at first, but then I got through it. After that I read another two or three books, including fairy tales. I achieved certain results. When somebody speaks Ukrainian to me, I listen with pleasure and never ask he switch to Russian. I used another method: listening to some Ukrainian songs and trying to recognize all the words.

Of course, Shevchenko's poems are translated into Russian. But it was the first time here that I read his works in the original language. By the way, he also wrote wonderful poems in Russian.

I have many reasons to be interested in Ukrainian. One of my grandmothers' family name was Monchenko, and in my native region people sing both Russian and Ukrainian songs.

The Day: Several newspapers wrote that there is a rumor you are going to be discharged, and it is nearly approved. Where does this rumor come from?

Ambassador: All diplomats one day take office, and someday they leave it. This is natural. But there are some ethical rules that should be kept toward foreign representatives.

The Day: What were your impressions of our country when you just came here and what are they now, after you have worked here for two years?

Ambassador: My impressions get better and better. I knew Ukraine a little even before I came here as ambassador. It is a great mighty country, with enormous potential in the sphere of science and industry. Of course, I did not know before that the Ukrainian intellectual elite is so rich, that there are so many not only connoisseurs but also creators of culture, especially in theatrical sphere. And the high linguistic skills of journalists are impressive.