Krzysztof Zanussi, corporal and poet

The world-famous film director Krzysztof Zanussi is completing the joint Ukrainian-Polish movie Serce na dloni (A Heart in Your Hand), starring the distinguished Ukrainian actor Bohdan Stupka. The co-producer from Ukraine is Oleh Kokhan from the SOTA Cinema Group.

This fall the film will undergo its “baptism of fire” at an international festival and will then premiere in Kyiv and Warsaw. Mr. Zanussi granted this correspondent an exclusive interview in Kyiv, where he was shooting the film’s final scenes.

I met Krzysztof Zanussi 10 years ago on my show called “Name” broadcast on the TET Channel. I was very worried before that interview because, although I was very familiar with his films, I knew next to nothing about him as a person. Details aside, I will say that I passed muster with Zanussi, which I still consider one of my professional victories.

Zanussi is a wonderful interlocutor-kind, clever, and, in spite of a clearly logical mindset, often absolutely unpredictable. When you talk with him, you should always be on the alert, but the result justifies this. I think that even Polish film enthusiasts will discover a new Krzysztof ZanussiHe H today. Among the Polish director’s best-known movies are The Structure of Crystals, Family Life, Behind the Wall, The Illumination, A Woman’s Decision (The Quarterly Balance), The Year of the Quiet Sun, The State of Possession, In Full Gallop, Life as a Fatal Sexually Transmitted Disease, and Persona non Grata.

PHYSICIST AND LYRICIST

Mr. Zanussi, I think everyone who loves your films knows that before you became a director you studied physics and philosophy in university. Do you make use of this knowledge when you make films?

“I started university in 1955, when Stalinism had already collapsed, but its atavisms still held sway in society. It was considered ludicrous and mindless to study liberal arts, such as literature, history, or philosophy. They were all ideology, pure and simple. Such professions were looked down upon by intellectuals. So the only fields that were left were physics, mathematics, and chemistry. Since I had no other choice, I enrolled in the university’s physics school. I am very pleased that I did.

“In the hallways after class we engaged in lively debates on various topics that were banned in the 1950s. We would listen to music together, go to the mountains, and believe in God. I recall that time with enormous pleasure. I am still close to some of the people from those days. But four years later I realized that I was not talented enough to be a physicist. I went to Cracow, to the socialist camp’s only university that gave impartial instruction in philosophy, which I had decided to study. To tell the truth, I quickly realized that I did not want to be a professional philosopher either. (Laughs)

“I had already been making amateur films, which helped get me into a film school. But my teachers absolutely disliked my works and were always intent on expelling me. Meanwhile, I had already seen a lot of ‘new wave’ films abroad and tried to apply those techniques in my films, such as hand-held cameras and improvisations by actors. Today these techniques are very widespread in film-making, but at the time it was considered a return to amateur cinema.

“As for the impact of physics and philosophy on my films... Na­turally, philosophy helps resolve some problems that I broach in my films, but they must reflect my personal experiences and emotions. I make all my films on the basis of my observations. Every script has its own key. I always make auteur films, with rare exceptions.”

Which physics law is the most lyrical and emotional?

“It is difficult to say which law is emotional to any degree. But one can experience physics and matter, even Newton’s laws.”

Really?

“Oh, yes, like when an apple falls on your head. This arouses strong feelings. (Laughs) This makes you think about the sense of your existence.”

I am asking you questions that, at first glance, have nothing to do with your work because it is extremely interesting for me to hear paradoxical answers to simple questions. This rarely happens. I must admit that even if I knew nothing about your films, I would still see a lot of them if only because of their unconventional and intriguing titles. I was pole-axed when I saw Life as a Fatal Sexually Transmitted Disease. I can’t even imagine how you came up with this.

“The title comes from a graffiti that I saw near my house. We live in an intelligent district, where such slogans often appear. I have a few more interesting ones in reserve. (Laughs) But this one suited the film amazingly, so I used it for my title. It’s a very serious statement, although at first glance it looks like mockery.”

Forgive my impertinence, but I think the name of your latest film, A Heart in Your Hand, which you co-produced with Oleh Kokhan of Ukraine, sounds rather banal.

“Let’s wait until the movie is released. I think you will see that this is a rather sarcastic title, black humor!”

WOMEN

You often give lectures on cinematic art in various countries. There must be a lot of women among the listeners. I am sure that many of them have fallen in love with a professor who cuts such a dashing figure. Have there been times when you fallen for your female students?

“Not epidemically. You can immediately tell what a student is after. And this is disappointing.”

But surely you get love notes.

“There are always love notes, mostly written by unhealthy people because of loneliness. When a high-strung girl sees quite a successful man who, in addition, is often shown on TV, he becomes close to her. She seeks to communicate with him. I once had an experience that assumed a completely morbid nature, so I asked a psychiatric cli­nic to advise me what to do. The doctor told me to maintain contact with her because our conversations had a therapeutic effect on this sick person.”

And did you maintain contact?

“What else could I do? I could not ignore her if our communication was acting like a medicine for her. But I must admit that my protracted telephone conversations with that lady were very painful.”

Did you as an artist benefit in any way from this kind of communication, or was it just a purely human wish to help that woman?

“No, it was a depressing experience.”

What kinds of women do you find interesting?

“Women who are truly feminine. I don’t like women who look like men, just as I don’t like men who resemble women. I don’t like it when the difference between the sexes is lost. In my opinion, it is very important to intuitively understand another individual. But when a businesswoman appears!...”

gather you don’t like strong women very much.

“Strength is a feminine trait.”

You think so?

“I am certain. Women are in principle stronger than us. They simply do not always show this.”

You are a surprisingly self-possessed person – at least I have never seen you in an aggressive state. One can even sense this trait in your films. But are you capable of doing foolish things?

“I thought they were wise when I was doing them.” (Laughs)

And then?

“And then it turned out that I had gone a bit out of my mind.” (Laughs)

So this has happened to you?

“Oh, yes. But I can’t recall anything extraordinary. I grew up in very complicated circumstances, and if I am still alive this means I did not make serious mistakes.”

Have you ever been insulted?

“There is a French saying that means ‘only female servants take offense.’ I think this is absolutely right, and I would not like to feel like a female servant (Laughs). If a dog barks at me, do I answer it?”

JEREZ, GRAPPA, ETC.

Speaking of dogs, do you have any pets?

“I have nine dogs. There were eight until recently, but the family grew unexpectedly. I saw a villager going to drown a puppy in the river. I couldn’t help taking it. I just couldn’t! But the doggy is extremely ugly.” (Laughs)

But it’s probably a very good dog?

“I don’t know: it’s too early to say. But she is really ugly!

What kinds of breeds are your dogs?

“All the others are purebred Labrador retrievers.”

Why Labradors?

“Simply because there was one, and then there were many.” (Laughs)

Are they all related?

“Yes. There was a family that wanted to give the pups away but they couldn’t bring themselves to do it.”

Why do you like this breed?

“Labradors have very well developed mimicry. And they can produce sounds that make you believe they are taking part in a conversation. It is a very intelligent breed.”

Do they watch your films?

“Not much. (Laughs) But when I am watching TV, they love to lie at my feet; they love feeling human warmth. You know, of course, that Labradors help the blind. It is a wonderful breed that brings great benefits to people.”

I know you once had racehorses.

“I still have two.”

How do you choose names for your animals? Do they mean something to you?

“I named all the dogs in honor of a relative who lives with us. He imports wines and other alcoholic beverages. So all the dogs have names based on different types of alcohol: Jerez, Grappa... If a new pup is born, we’ll call it Malaga. That’s quite a good Spanish wine!” (Laughs)

What do you like to drink?

“Wine, and a bitter type of vermouth.”

ALMOST A UKRAINIAN WIFE

Are there any habits that you will never drop under any circumstances?

“Food. (Laughs) I am trying to fight this, of course, but without apparent success.”

Why would you if it gives you pleasure?

“I am already eight kilos overweight. My wife (the artist Elzbieta Grochowska — Ed.) says she once married an entirely different man!”

How did you meet your wife?

“That’s an interesting story. We met when we were very young, but we didn’t pay any attention to each other. By the way, I owe our meeting to her brother with whom I used to go horseback-riding. My wife is 18 months younger than me; that’s an enormous difference when you’re young. Underage girls did not interest me! (Laughs) But when we were almost 40, we met again. We’ve been together ever since. By the way, my wife comes from Uk­raine. Her paternal ancestors are the founders of Vinnytsia. Her maternal side can trace its lineage back to Riuryk’s time.”

Your wife criticizes you for gaining weight. But is she in good shape?

“Yes, she is.”

Does she do anything special?

“No. She does a lot of work in the garden, in the house, where she often carries a hammer. I don’t have to do anything extra. My wife is also an extremely kindhearted person. She seldom loses her temper. They say her usual state is between a prayer and a hammer!” (Laughs)

Who does more housework?

“She does, of course. At least she manages to do this better.”

And what do you manage to do better?

“Me? Speeches. (Laughs) Elzbieta was asked to give some lectures at a high school, and she ably explained to the youngsters that respect for others is the cornerstone of good manners. After her lecture a boy said, ‘But I don’t want to respect someone else.’”

Was this in the school you built?

“Right.”

Could you give me some details of this project? Why did you decide to found a private secondary school?

“After the fall of the socialist regime, we inherited a horrible legacy of that society: terrible schools and teachers, who had been killing initiative and stifling the imaginations of several generations of pupils. They were training soldiers, not citizens. Then the 1990s brought some freedom. My wife, friends, and I decided to try to change something. We began to raise funds to build a school, and we finally did it. There are two schools now. I sometimes meet their pupils, and my wife has repeatedly tried to teach them good manners.” (Smiles)

Do you ever feel disappointment?

“No. On the contrary, there is a desire to explain that such behavior is utter boorishness. And if you want to be a boor, you have enormous opportunities to achieve this goal.”

Can you be objective about your wife’s paintings?

“No, because I know that she is the painter, so ostensible impartiality is always an illusion. If I may say so, I am in love with her pictures even without seeing them!” (Laughs)

Are there many of your wife’s works at home?

“Very few. There are a lot of unfi­nished ones. I set up a small gallery in the garden.”

What about bad weather?

“There’s a roof there.” (Laughs)

With what trend are your wife’s paintings associated?

“I would say that her work resembles paintings from the 1920s and 1930s, post-realist painting, where you can feel some freedom and some of Cezanne’s influence. There’s a heavy emphasis on color.”

NORTHERN ITALIAN

Are you Italian?

“Half.”

The other branch of the Zanussi genealogical tree is Polish. I don’t think you have too much Italian in you, at least on the outside. What about inside?

“People in other countries are a bit mistaken about Italians. For example, if you compare Sardinia and Sicily, these are two different Italys, absolutely different looks and mentalities. Northern and Central Italy are totally different. I am a northerner.”

What do you like most in Italy? Which province, what city?

“I adore southern Italy, al­though naturally I often visit Rome, which I think everybody loves.

“I admire Venice. This is a city of myths, it is a legend! Perhaps this is the memory of my ancestors speaking, but Venice is a dream and something unreal to me. It is very beautiful in the winter. Some close friends of mine live there, and I often visit them, sometimes just to relax for a few days. I simply wander through the narrow streets, not the tourist traps but the outskirts, such as the Arsenal, the Jewish ghetto, and the port. I really relish this! My Italian relatives live in the mountains, not far from Venice. They always keep a spare room for my wife and me. It is a hundred kilometers from the city, a quiet 75-minute ride. It is wonderful there!”

If I am not mistaken, Italian television even showed a program where you shared your impressions of your travels?

“Absolutely. Incidentally, I did two TV shows in Poland earlier. The first, Sunday Chats, had a broader content: memory throughout generations and the essence of God. In the other program, Chats in the Garden, I talked about various cities. I would just walk around the garden, sit down occasionally, and talk to the camera that was following me all the time. I often invited some guests and sometimes showed film clips. As for my Italian TV programs, they resembled classical documentary films.”

Which country has most impressed Krzysztof Zanussi the avid traveler?

“Incidentally, my name is Christopher (Krzysztof in Polish), the patron saint of travelers. And the country that has im­pressed me the most...Apart from Poland, which you do not choose but love as if she were your mother, I balance between Italy and France. We have already talked about Italy, which is native to me to some extent. And I am in love with France because I lived there for a long time. It both captivates and irritates me; a not-so-simple nation.”

Do you love Paris?

“I have an apartment in Paris, and I always long to go there. A foreigner feels comfortable living in France because you are always treated like a guest. In any other country, for example, after a soccer match, the locals will ask if you rooted for their team. But it doesn’t occur to anybody here to ask you this because you are a foreigner. As long as you don’t marry his daughter!” (Laughs)

THE POPE, FELLINI, AND TARKOVSKY

I know that you were a friend of Pope John Paul II and now you are a member of the Papal Council. How do you bring together a physics-based education, a bohemian profession, and the question of faith?

“All these characteristics are compatible in the Western way of thinking. That is the difference between the East and the West. I was educated in the Latin tradition, where there is a simple belief: ‘God is the truth; therefore the truth cannot be opposed to God.’ It is also scientific. I discussed a lot of questions with priests, on the basis of Aristotle’s teaching, for example, where the dividing line is between feelings and reason, on the one hand, and the sphere of faith, on the other.

“Incidentally, one can also adopt a rational attitude to faith. They only intersect one another in the borderline area. The West generally does not see this line. This is why universities were founded even in the Middle Ages. Since we believe in God, science must emphasize that the divine element cannot come into opposition with it. This is a dogma. It is politics that runs the show today. Political correctness! What the Paris-based Sorbonne allowed itself in the Middle Ages is still surprising.”

Do you have friends in the art world?

“It is complicated to be friends with colleagues. With actors the relationship is always linked to gain, and with film directors it is competitive. So I don’t have many friends in this field, but I do have some, for example, Andrei Smirnov. We have been friends for many years. We sometimes argue, but our relationship has withstood the test of time. I can also call Andrei Tarkovsky a friend. We were especially close in the last years of his life. Otherwise, I have a lot of good acquaintances among my colleagues.”

Is there a director about whom you could say while watching his film: I don’t understand how he manages to do this! I wouldn’t be able to do that?

“Federico Fellini is an illustrative example. As a spectator, I adore this master! I admire his work, but Fellini’s fantasy has nothing to do with mine, or take Andrzej Wajda. His films show talent, they are original but beyond my understanding. But if I were invited to Ingmar Bergman’s set, I think I could finish the film that he began. Krzysztof Kieslowski is also close to me in spirit.”

Which directors’ films would you recommend for someone’s home DVD library?

“I think one can watch the films of Tarkovsky and Fellini over and over.”

What books have to be in your personal library?

“First of all, the Bible, Thomas Mann’s The Magic Mountain, Fedor Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov, Albert Camus’ The Fall, and Stendhal’s The Charterhouse of Parma.”

What kind of music do you listen to?

“Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Verdi, and Tchaikovsky.”

LIFE AS A DISEASE

Every individual has a world of his own, all the more so an artist. What is your world?

“I live at the crossroads of several worlds. It is very good that, apart from the main thing – the world of art – there is a place in my life for my academic, church, and diplomatic worlds. For example, I recently became the co-president of the Polish-Russian Forum. My Russian counterpart is a deputy foreign minister, but the Poles appointed an artist. (Smiles) We have already had clashes because I oppose all ideology. The Russians wanted to talk about the future of Poland and Russia. But I said that this was not an interesting question. It is productive to debate the future of the world from the Polish and Russian points of view. It is interesting for us, Poles, what another nation thinks about this matter. We can derive benefits from such meetings. But what the Russians think of themselves is absolutely of no interest to me.”

Judging from your diverse interests, you must also be keeping track of contemporary TV and cinema.

“I rarely watch television because I often travel. But Polish television is not very original with its never-ending serials and reality shows. All this, unfortunately, has also come to our country. There are several public TV channels in Poland, but they do not serve their purpose. On the other hand, there are private TV companies that started from a rather low level. Advertisers now understand that villagers do not watch most channels — they are short of money. So, one should look to big cities with high purchasing power. And since they are populated with more educated people, they should be provided with an original TV product whose level should be increased as much as possible.

“One information channel is already broadcasting good political programs and employs highly skilled journalists. These programs are probably the best thing on Polish television today. Three years ago one of the public TV channels launched a good history program that offers an unbiased account of what was going on in Poland 50 to 60 years ago.

“As for the cinema, unfortunately there are no high-profile upheavals. Of course, there are some undeniable masters whose works I always look forward to, for example, Woody Allen. But many things are disappointing. I think our civilization is a bit tired, or maybe it is going through a period of transition. It is like health: some diseases are inevitable, curable, or fatal.”

Are you interested in knowing whether our civilization will survive?

“Although I am a mere mortal myself, of course I would like our civilization to continue developing, even out of curiosity. (Laughs)

Do you believe in life after death?

“There is hope, but there is no proof.” (Smiles)

BRIGITTE, SAMOILOVA, AND DODA

I once read somewhere that you reject fashion.

“I would put that a bit differently. In the social environment with which I am associated it was always considered bad taste to follow fashion blindly. One can have a certain attitude to it. However, a serious person cannot unreservedly bow to fashion, because he or she may become known as a degenerate. And a woman dressed like in a glossy magazine is, pardon me, very cheap. Fashion designers are fooling us, but we don’t understand this.”

What is your ideal of beauty, at least where famous actresses are concerned?

“That is difficult to say because I don’t know contemporary young actresses very well. The older generation is very well known. These are mostly American women. There are no European stars. Even if an actress makes a name for herself, she immediately goes to the US to carve out a career. This means that Europe is unable to create its own unique image. For example, Brigitte Bardot could have never become a star in America; it would have simply rejected her. This actress has a purely French charm. And Marlene Dietrich was still a German even in American cinema.

“When Tatiana Samoilova ap­peared in the film The Cranes Are Flying, it was absolutely clear that only a Russian woman could be like this, with her looks and deep inner dramatism! Samoilova should have had a brilliant career. Unfortunately, the bureaucrats did her career in. It is really difficult for me to answer this question because sometimes a totally new type of beauty emerges, an absolutely unexpected one that outshines all the others.”

Have you come across a similar phenomenon in today’s Poland?

“A wonderful beauty recently ap­peared. Incidentally, she was cast in our film, just a tiny bit part. She is the popular pop singer Doda, who is the No. 1 star among our young people. Her strange beauty is a mix of spirituality and vulgarity. She is 23, so she is not yet aware of her uniqueness. There are instances when Doda is extremely attractive: a pure creature, totally charming. And then all of a sudden, she is a vulgar slut! She has mystery and immense feminine strength.”

Have you ever used the services of a prostitute?

“I can say honestly: no. In my youth there was no such thing as prostitutes. And even if there were some, they were horrible! Incidentally, they were called ‘Georgians’ in Poland, although these ladies had nothing to do with Georgia. They just solicited in rundown buildings, which are called ‘gruzy’ in Polish.” (Smiles)

Could you describe yourself in one phrase?

“A person capable of self-limitation. My life strategy is not to allow myself any excesses. It is an illusion that it is easier to live if everything is permissible.”

Your compatriot and colleague Andrzej Wajda once said that a film director is a corporal and a poet at the same time. Which of them has the upper hand in Krzysztof Zanussi?

“I would like to think there is a balance between them because the corporal organizes the process and the poet makes the movie.” (Smiles)