“We must go to NATO”

We met in a downtown Kyiv cafe. He was with a girlfriend and flowers. It was obvious by all accounts that the Donetsk airport defender used his leave to meet his sweetheart who lived in the capital. Courtesy, a happy smile, and sort of dreamy sadness in his eyes… No snobbish mannerism or self-advertisement (maybe, this way of behavior would be natural for one who deserves, like nobody else, to arouse interest in his own personality?). Interesting observations, precise definitions, well-grounded conclusions… The thought that keeps haunting me after talking to him is: this is the kind of people who should work in the Ukrainian security forces. For they have patriotic ideals, courage, and, at the same time, intellect. New, true, heroes have emerged, which means we have a future. All we have to do is to hold out and be patient but not to procrastinate and lose the seasoned cadres.

Mykhailo, I often ask the servicemen stationed at the Donetsk airport about who are the guys who fight shoulder-to-shoulder with you?

“I must emphasize that the fighters are absolutely different people who come from totally different strata of society – both territorially and socially. There are coal miners from Pavlodar and other Dnipropetrovsk region towns, as well as refugees from the temporarily occupied territories, lawyers, teachers, engineers, businessmen, and even officials. If they are not drafted, they volunteer. And there are very many volunteers now. This is the reality, not propaganda. People are fed up with injustice. The Maidan events roused self-awareness. People have understood that even one person can do or influence something.”

One is as good as many?

“Yes. Patriotism has awakened, as has nationalism in the best meaning of the word. Look at the Russians – they are predominantly nationalists. Why then can we not defend ourselves as Ukrainians? There are also Russians and Afghan war veterans among us. What guides them? They know that their families are behind their backs, and they can do something important for them. We are fighting for the country and the people, but every individual must have a point of support, a point to apply his or her efforts to. For some it is the girlfriend, for some it is mother, for some it is children. And this movement turns into the defense of this country.”

Many are in depression, but you say that even one person can do something. What can one person do?

“It takes at least two men to handle a combat vehicle. But I will give you an example of the valor and courage of a man I had the honor to serve with. When we were very close to Donetsk in the early autumn, our situation was very difficult. This man had worked at a steel mill before and he was never listed in the mobilization reserve, for he was a high-skilled specialist. But he joined up as a volunteer. He was a reconnaissance man and an infantry fighting vehicle gun-layer. When the terrorists were shelling our roadblocks almost on the outskirts of Donetsk so heavily that we could not even raise our heads, he and his driver jumped into a fighting vehicle and literally cut off the pit refuse heap’s top, where the artillery spotter was emplaced, with their gun at a point-blank fire distance. He in fact left the enemy battery without its ‘eyes’ and there was silence for several days. This military example proves that even one person can save many by a concrete action.”

How is he getting on?

“Unfortunately, this brave soldier died heroically at the Donetsk airport when a sniper’s bullet hit him. We buried him recently. He came from Dnipropetrovsk.”

So do you. Incidentally, have you come across any acquaintances of yours in the ATO zone?

“Yes and quite often. I studied together with some of them. I also struck up some new acquaintances. You can come across someone you’ve known for a very long time and would never believe that he could be here. For example, he was a teacher, but something sparked inside his heart. He could not just put up with injustice. There are also people who did conscription service together back in the Soviet era. You’ll never feel lonely there and, what is more, you see that you are not the only one like this. And when the man you knew, who was your friend and shared the same trench with you, suddenly dies… You can’t possibly forget this, so we also have personal reasons now why we should fight.”

People were disappointed with the Maidan. In my view, the main thing that happened a year ago was, first of all, a victory over personal disappointment, a victory of spirit.

“Of course, there is some disillusionment. The army has been in a mess for 20 years. Nobody has ever thought that a war may break out and who we will fight against. People are also disappointed with the leadership which is not exactly rushing to assume the blame. The system is very slowly responding to the new challenges of time. There are not many people who can make firm decisions, but still there are some. So, the new military elite are forming out of these people, volunteers, those who have certain ideals and know that even one person can have an impact.”

Do you feel that the current military leadership sometimes shows not just incompetence but an incompetence that borders on treason?

“I am an ordinary soldier and do not have enough information to draw this kind of conclusions. Of course, there are many complaints. You sometimes fall into despair over what they are doing. But there is still a hope that they have a better view of the situation on their headquarter maps. But there still is disappointment over what the leadership is doing.”

For example?

“When medium-level officers make a firm decision to knock the enemy out or carry out a tactical maneuver, the top brass ask: ‘Why are you showing this initiative?’ Or you’ve achieved a tactical success, but the higher command remains dissatisfied because they were not informed. Surely, there must be a military hierarchy. But if the top command does not exactly hasten to make a necessary decision, it is made in the field.”

And are they dragging it out? Where is the line between incompetence and treason?

“It is a very difficult question. It is a real tangle, when the incompetence of some people meets the evil designs of others. One wrong step brings a wrong mechanism into play, as it happened in the Ilovaisk tragedy. It is a terrible tragedy. We are in contact with the people who stayed in that inferno. Practically no unit remained without losses. It is a national tragedy. The Western armies that conducted anti-terrorism operations in Iraq and Afghanistan also made blunders. It’s natural. But they have a streamlined system of auxiliary forces, that is, logistics services, which makes up for the blunders. The wounded were quickly evacuated. The units running out of ammunition were replenished with it in no time. Moreover, this was delivered in all kinds of incredible ways. For example, a relief container was dropped by means of a special parachute. For us, it is a pipe dream. In our case, a tactical blunder is multiplied by discreditable armaments and results in a tragedy. And what caused this is just one wrong step.”

What was the wrong step in Ilovaisk?

“Firstly, the danger of our neighbors’ intervention was underestimated. Nobody thought that conventional forces would simply come to the terrorists’ rescue. They thought everything would be done either indirectly or with the hands of those who call themselves ‘militia.’”

But we are still not saying that we were attacked. Officially, we are conducting an anti-terrorism operation, not a war.

“I don’t know who still cherishes the illusion that it is ATO. Russia once called its military operations in Chechnya exactly like this – counter-terrorism operation – although it was clear that it was a real war. We must draw conclusions from this, but there must be some big politics involved.”

There were a lot of “little Ilovaisks” before Ilovaisk. The blunders were of a systemic nature and resulted in a major tragedy in Ilovaisk. There is so much talk about NATO now. What is the attitude of the fighting guys to NATO membership?

“Absolutely positive. We must join. The guys who are fighting are conscientious – they are not relaxing at supply bases, and they see things the way they are. Firstly, it will be difficult to hold out on our own. Secondly, our armed forces badly need to be modernized. It is ineffective and irrational to reinvent the wheel. As for friendship with our neighbors, everything is quite clear. The only way is to enter NATO. This means access to the experience of the countries which were building their armies for decades on end, took part in very difficult conflicts, and have almost ready recipes of how to make an army effective. I don’t want our army to be a machine, where soldiers just look forward to the end of their service. The army must have servicemen who love their occupation. They must serve with satisfaction. There is a dictum that the army service is too noble to do it by coercion. The Western armies’ experience of organization and personnel training is indispensable for us. We can only begin to purchase Western arms when we set up a viable system of human resources and army personnel management. Everybody is saying now that we need Western-made weapons. Weapons are a huge complex – intelligence, analysis, logistics and supply services, headquarters, etc. Weapons can only be used effectively if the whole system functions well. If we are supplied now with sophisticated weapon systems, the latter will be just incompatible with what we have.”

In what way do the Russian military use civilians against the Ukrainian forces?

“It was mean and outrageous when the bandits adjusted fire or sniped from five-storied buildings. Those buildings were full of tenants, and the bandits knew very well that the Ukrainian troops would be shooting back. Who will the people complain about? About the Ukrainian military. I think this is what the terrorists are counting on. There is Zavodska Street in Mariinka. The picture is terrible – women wear black headscarves. Who is going to identify the guilty? The civilians are putting the blame on the Ukrainian soldiers, and they don’t want to understand that it was the bandits’ handiwork. Very few in Mariinka come up to us to say that it is very good that we are here, for we ensure law and order. Others just hate us sometimes. Very much depends on propaganda. There are dish antennas on the same Zavodska St. I don’t think they watched UT-1 by means of these dishes. There are also very many people who don’t care. They just say as follows: look guys, we don’t care whether it is Ukraine or Russia – if only there were no shooting. This ‘don’t care’ is a major problem because there can be no ‘don’t care.’ Unfortunately, military statistics say that civilians are the first victims of a war. If you don’t return the fire, you will lose. It is a principle of war. But we are technically unable to return the fire precisely at the places from where the enemy was shooting. So, we select a target and fire a few shots until the enemy stops shooting.”

Is it true that we are still using the 1970s equipment?

“The point is that our unit performs a number of specific functions, and there are people who are supposed to do one thing according to their specialty, but they are in fact all-purpose soldiers. He is a sniper, a radiotelephone operator, a spotter, and even a fighting vehicle driver. We had some infantry fighting vehicles that had seen service in Afghanistan. The gun still bears the 1980s-time notches which servicemen made to mark the number of the hit targets. This equipment was repaired, and we have nothing better so far. But, believe me, we do our job quite well. If we had a better hardware, we could do our job at least more precisely. Knowing our situation, Russia has done its best to present us as enemies for a certain part of the Ukrainians. The Russian media are hyping up thousand-fold each of our errors and responses to a provocation.”

I can give a lot of examples, when bandits shelled Luhansk from inside the city itself. That was a provocation in order to make TV footage. Incidentally, coming back to dissatisfaction with the leadership, is it realistic to use the military in the struggle against the government? And, in general, is it preferable to follow the way of evolution or revolution?

“It is common knowledge that there are both blunders and treason. But to use the military to fight the government means to play in the hands of Putin. We must draw the line at bloodshed. You come to understand in this war that every life is sacred – even the one of the idiot on the other side. He may also have a family, and somebody will lose their father. But it is also unacceptable that things go in a conformist way. What we need is a surgically accurate and reasonable use of force.”

It is about special services.

“Yes, we must develop our own security services. Politicians come and go, but special services must be the backbone of this country’s security. The US SWAT has a nice motto: ‘There is a time for a hammer and a time for a scalpel.’ But let me stress: in no way should bloodshed be allowed. Otherwise the efforts we have made will prove to be futile.”